Originally posted by DoctorScribblesGood grief, this thread ought to stir the pot.
What do you think it is?
1) Their mistreatment of women
2) Their suicidal aggression
3) Their rejection of Jesus
But what the hell, I'll bite.
I think a society/religion that does not accept women as equal memebers of that society/religion is woefully misguided. It is worth mentioning that the Christian Church could use some improvement in this area as well although admittedly not nearly as much as many of the Muslim societies around the world.
So, my answer, is number 1.
TheSkipper
Clearly #3, but we don't need to punish them because they'll all go to Hell anyway, and every good Christian they kill in a suicide attack is going to Heaven, so why even bother fighting them. Clearly it is the Lord's divine plan to send more good people to heaven while at the same time, removing some of Satan's servants from this earth. Even when they attack Him, the Muslims and other enemies like the Mormons can't help but to do His divine will.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesWhat's wrong with rejection of Jesus? I reject him too but I am not Muslim. (More specifically, I reject PAUL, who is responsible for the modern abomination that is called Christianity). Muslims are no better and no worse. Christians taught Muslims all about aggression in the Crusades so don't even go there, Muslims are just doing what Christians taught them. Take a peek at Saladin during the Crusades, he was very tolerant of ofther religions even though Christians attacked him. Muslims need another Saladin now for sure. Just because Muslims are a thousand years 'behind' christianity in certain respect, they will tone down the rhetoric eventually just like Cristianity.
The ones who endorse the mistreatment of women, suicidal aggression or the rejection of Jesus. Are there any other kinds?
I just wish it would be 100 years ago...
This is not an answer, just some commentary on each of the listed issues:
(1)(a) The Qur’an liberalized women’s rights dramatically over the pre-Islamic culture, and as a religious text, far more than either the Jewish or Christian scriptures; (b) I would argue that the ahadith cited in support of suppressing women are suspect and probably inauthentic (the “kyriarchy” uses what it can, and when it can’t, makes it up); and (c) there is an articulate feminist movement in Islam (e.g., the likes of Fatima Mernissi) that I think is deserving of affirmation and support—without simply telling them they ought to leave the faith.
The feminists within Islam do not need to reach outside of their religious texts/traditions to make their arguments.
(2) “Suicidal aggression” is condemned by the Qur’an and ahadith, and a rather minimal web search can produce a substantial number of condemnations (sometimes in the form of fatwas) from the larger Islamic community.
(3) Technically, it is not Jesus that Muslims reject, but Jesus’ divinity.
Well, okay, I’ll give an answer: the first two, equally. Both represent the typical abuse and mis-representation of religion by power-seeking groups for their own purposes (this is not to say, with regard to the second issue, that Islam is a “pacifist” religion; but it does have a fairly clearly defined “just war” doctrine, which places limits on the use of violence).
Only the third issue has anything to do with the religion, per se. Sonhouse's comments are on point there.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI think visited said most of what I was going to say.
What do you think it is?
1) Their mistreatment of women
2) Their suicidal aggression
3) Their rejection of Jesus
I'm Muslim, and I don't think you talk about Islam here:
1) Their mistreatment of women
What form of mistreatment you are talking about? Just give me an example. Saying it this wat as if it is a fact has nothing to do with the truth.
I asked my wife, my mother, my sister, and many of Muslim women that I can talk to about this point. They are all educated and study Islam and non of them told me that she feel mistreated in Islam. So if the Muslim woman don't feel mistreated, how do you know that?
Their suicudal aggression
Give me a single Quate from Quran or Hadith that support your claim. If someone interpret Quran his way that has nothing to do with Islam.
Any way this point is discussed here several time, and If you check my posts you will find it.
3) Their rejection of Jesus
Muslims don't reject Jesus. Actually it is part of their faith to belive in him. If a muslim didn't belive in him then he is not a Muslim. But muslims don't belive he is God. Because simply he is not. And not only Muslims do that, some Christian sects belive so too.
Originally posted by vistesdSpeaking of Islam...I read a fairly interesting book recently that devoted some time ot the question of Jihad and "suicidal aggression" here is a quote:
This is not an answer, just some commentary on each of the listed issues:
(1)(a) The Qur’an liberalized women’s rights dramatically over the pre-Islamic culture, and as a religious text, far more than either the Jewish or Christian scriptures; (b) I would argue that the ahadith cited in support of suppressing women are suspect and probably inauthentic ( ...[text shortened]... rd issue has anything to do with the religion, per se. Sonhouse's comments are on point there.
The End of Faith by Sam Harris
"Given the vicissitudes of Muslim history, however, i suspect that the starting point I have chosen for this book - that of a single suicide bomber following rhe consequences of his beliefs - is bound to exasperate many readers, since it ignores most of what commentators on the Middle East have said about the roots of Muslim violence. It ignore the painful history of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. It ignores the collusion of Western powers with corrupt dictatorships. It ignore the endemic poverty and lack of economic opportunity that now plague the Arab world. But I will argue that we can ignore all of these things - or treat them only to place them safely on the shelf - because the world is filled with poor uneducated, and exploited peoples who do nto commit acts of terrorism, indeed who would never commit terrorism of the sort that has become so commonplace among Muslims; and the Muslim world has no shortage of educated and prosperous men and women, suffering little more that their infatuation with Koranic eschatology, who are eager to murder infidels for God's sake."
Later, he quotes a chilling passage from the hadith:
"Jihad is your duty under any ruler, be he godly or wicked.
A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it.
A day and a night fighting on the frontier is better than a month of fasting and prayer.
Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were givemn the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing rhe superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause).
He who dies without having taken part in a campaign dies in a kind of unbelief.
Paradise is in the shadow of swords."
Yikes!
TheSkipper
Originally posted by ahosyneyhttp://www.yuricareport.com/Iraq/IraqiConstDraftSubjectsWomentoIslamicLaw.html
I asked my wife, my mother, my sister, and many of Muslim women that I can talk to about this point. They are all educated and study Islam and non of them told me that she feel mistreated in Islam. So if the Muslim woman don't feel mistreated, how do you know that?
BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 19 - A working draft of Iraq's new constitution would cede a strong role to Islamic law and could sharply curb women's rights, particularly in personal matters like divorce and family inheritance.
The document's writers are also debating whether to drop or phase out a measure enshrined in the interim constitution, co-written last year by the Americans, requiring that women make up at least a quarter of the parliament.
The draft of a chapter of the new constitution obtained by The New York Times on Tuesday guarantees equal rights for women as long as those rights do not "violate Shariah," or Koranic law.
The Americans and secular Iraqis banished such explicit references to religious law from the interim constitution adopted early last year.
The draft chapter, circulated discreetly in recent days, has ignited outrage among women's groups, which held a protest on Tuesday morning in downtown Baghdad at the square where a statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down by American marines in April 2003.
One of the critical passages is in Article 14 of the chapter, a sweeping measure that would require court cases dealing with matters like marriage, divorce and inheritance to be judged according to the law practiced by the family's sect or religion.
Under that measure, Shiite women in Iraq, no matter what their age, generally could not marry without their families' permission. Under some interpretations of Shariah, men could attain a divorce simply by stating their intention three times in their wives' presence.
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