The worst thing about Muslims

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Holy smokes! I think this is the first documented conversion in the Spirituality forum. Congratulations.

Atheists: +1
Christians: -1

Yes, my conversion is the result of years of soul searching and a great deal of emotional pain. In the end, I could not solve the problem of theodicy without engaging in wild leaps of logic bordering on comical. Those that claim to have solved the problem "by recourse to notions of free will and other incoherencies, have merely heaped bad philosophy onto bad ethics."

Bertrand Russell sums it up best (doesn't he always?) : Apart from logical cogency, there is to me something a little odd about the ethical valuations of those who think that an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent Deity, after preparing the ground bymany millions of years of lifeless nebulae, would consider Himself adequately rewarded by the final emergence of Hitler and Stalin and the H bomb."

TheSkipper

Originally posted by ahosyney
I have a simple question to you and to every body else:

I think there almost 1600 million Muslims today. May be less may be more.

How many of them are terrorists in your eyes.

What is the ratio of Muslim who have the willing to bomb themselves as you said?

Are all terrorists Muslims?

-----------------------------

I don't excpect anything from that. It is just a simple question!!!

Of course, not all terrorists are Muslims (although a sad percentage of them are) and I would *never* *never* imply that all Muslims are terrorists.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
vistesd,

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt and i will assure you that i have far more questions to ask when it comes to Islam than I have statements to make.

However, I cannot deny that which I have observed for myself and I will say that Islam, at this moment in history, is being used (and quite successfully) to promote huge amounts ...[text shortened]... ut hadith would be akin to me attempting to read the Bible without a translation.

TheSkipper

Islam, at this moment in history, is being used (and quite successfully) to promote huge amounts of violence and hatred.

A factual statement, carefully made...

From what i can see it need not be perverted much, if at all, to accomplish this goal.

This I tend to disagree with—but see my post using the example of Jewish divorce to see how I’m coming at it.

I do not pull any punches in my criticism of the Christian Crusades nor will I pull punches in my criticism of Muslim Terrorism; I think you can agree this is reasonable.

Eminently.

I understand you are more skeptical of hadith than most Muslims but then again it is not you who I worry is going to blow himself up in front of a market place.

Good 🙂 BTW, I’m not a Muslim.

Again, I recognize your skepticism of hadith but when one considers that hadith is often used as the lens through which to interpret the Koran, mand Muslim jurists consider it an even greater authority on the parctice of Islam. A Muslim friend of mine once described reading the Koran without hadith would be akin to me attempting to read the Bible without a translation.

Yes, I’ve been told that too, and perhaps it is the majority view, but it is not the only one. There is also an issue of “abrogation” out there, in various forms; whether any of those are the majority view, I don’t know. I am careful about my skepticism here, since I am not a Muslim, and draw it from Muslim sources who are also skeptical, in varying degrees. I really can only summarize their arguments, or reproduce them.

With regard to the Qur’an, I found it impossible to get my head around it without also reading considerable commentary. The two translations I have with extensive commentary are Muhammad Asad’s and Muhammad Maulana Ali’s; Ahmed Ali’s translation has less commentary, but what is there is helpful. Arabic, as a sister Semitic language, may be somewhat like Hebrew: the way the language itself works militates against any single-word translation, and the hermeneutical possibilities are myriad. The Qur’an also seems to have a strange dialectical structure, which does not correspond to anything that I can find in the Bible, say.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Of course, not all terrorists are Muslims (although a sad percentage of them are) and I would *never* *never* imply that all Muslims are terrorists.

I asked you how many of them are terrorists ,1 , 10 , 1000, 1000000

what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all Muslims, and what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all terrorist?

That is what I'm asking about!!!

Originally posted by vistesd
With regard to the Qur’an, I found it impossible to get my head around it without also reading considerable commentary. The two translations I have with extensive commentary are Muhammad Asad’s and Muhammad Maulana Ali’s; Ahmed Ali’s translation has less commentary, but what is there is helpful. Arabic, as a sister Semitic language, may be somewhat lik dialectical structure, which does not correspond to anything that I can find in the Bible, say.

This paragraph right above...this is it, this is why I love you and all like you. You recognize the likely problems with translation (although you didn't metnion it here I would assume you have similar problems with the copy of a copy of a copy issue) realize you have not and will likely never reach complete understanding and adjust the strength of your beliefs accordingly. This is precisely what so many people of many faiths do not do that confounds me so thoroughly.

So, in the end, it is likely not the Koran that I have a problem with since what I read was only my perception of it's intent. Where my problem lies, with this particular faith and countless others, is the arrogance of firm belief without a solid foundation.

This is why I gave up on the Church and her people years before I gave up on God. I held out hope that it was not God's fault that his followers were so intellectually lazy. Turns out, it wasn't God's fault at all since I don't think he exists but simply the folly of man from beginning to end.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
No, let's go there.

[b]Christians taught Muslims all about aggression in the Crusades

Really? Was it Christians who invaded the Holy Land? Was it Christians who started razing down holy sites of the Muslims?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Middle_Eastern_situation

Take a peek at Saladin during the Crusades, he was very toler ...[text shortened]... living within?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin#Fighting_the_Crusaders


Seriously.

Hey thanks for the links, I printed them out and will study them. I did notice a story in their about Saladin buying back a baby that had been stolen, seems to point out his basic fairness. Anyway I am not close minded and will read it! Thanks again.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I asked you how many of them are terrorists ,1 , 10 , 1000, 1000000

what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all Muslims, and what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all terrorist?

That is what I'm asking about!!!

Where are the terrorists in the christian world? Methinks, Ireland mainly. Where else? I am not condoning anything here just curious.
I suppose a lot of people would put Bush in that catagory.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I asked you how many of them are terrorists ,1 , 10 , 1000, 1000000

what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all Muslims, and what is the ratio of Muslim terrorists to all terrorist?

That is what I'm asking about!!!

Well, how the heck would I know?

All I know is that when there is an act of terrorism perpetrated against the world, at least of late, it has usually been done by someone claiming to be Muslim. Whether they are a "true" Muslim is anyone's guess and I'm not interested in speculating about it.

However, the larger point here is that these are the rewards of irrational belief. Especially irrational belief that defines who a person is complete with tennants for how to live ones life. I have attempted to finally abandon these irrational beliefs in my own life and i could not be happier.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Islam, at this moment in history, is being used (and quite successfully) to promote huge amounts of violence and hatred.

A factual statement, carefully made...

From what i can see it need not be perverted much, if at all, to accomplish this goal.

This I tend to disagree with—but see my post using the example of Jewish divorce to see h ...[text shortened]... dialectical structure, which does not correspond to anything that I can find in the Bible, say.[/b]

Arabic, as a sister Semitic language, may be somewhat like Hebrew: the way the language itself works militates against any single-word translation, and the hermeneutical possibilities are myriad. The Qur’an also seems to have a strange dialectical structure, which does not correspond to anything that I can find in the Bible, say.

That point I wanted to talk about. I think got it. No single translation can give the whole meaning of Quran. Quran as a unique language structure and even arabic speakers don't get all. So reading a sinlge translation doesn't help much, you need to compair it with other translation as well. I read Quran in Arabic of course, but I also looked at 4 different translations, I didn't find the complete meaning I understand in all the four togather.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Well, how the heck would I know?

All I know is that when there is an act of terrorism perpetrated against the world, at least of late, it has usually been done by someone claiming to be Muslim. Whether they are a "true" Muslim is anyone's guess and I'm not interested in speculating about it.

However, the larger point here is that these are the rew ...[text shortened]... mpted to finally abandon these irrational beliefs in my own life and i could not be happier.

My point here every commnity or sect even athiest have some of its individuals who interprets the ideas and thoughts of their faith system toward some specific actions. And they could be directed towards violance if required. But is this enough to judge the whole community or faith system.

The other point is when you want to attack (I don't mean militry attack) a specific community , sect, or faith you can simply focuse on this ratio of individuals and try to show that it is the common way of thinking or behaviour of this faith. And that is what the media did and do these days for Islam.

Any way I understand the problem you see about Quran, and I can discuss with you.

All the verses in Quran that talks about war or fight with indifals is talking about war, and ony war. Which mean that it is doctrains that regulate the war in Islamic low. It tell muslims what to do during war. And as it ask Muslims not to be afraid during war. It also prevent violance if the war finished. So if there is no war, there is no fight is allowed with infidals.

There is no doctrian I found or tought that tell me that I should start a war, or kill any one.

It tell me to defend myself. And tell others my message.

Sorry for my language and dispread ideas. But I hope you understand what I mean.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
This paragraph right above...this is it, this is why I love you and all like you. You recognize the likely problems with translation (although you didn't metnion it here I would assume you have similar problems with the copy of a copy of a copy issue) realize you have not and will likely never reach complete understanding and adjust the strength of your ...[text shortened]... lt at all since I don't think he exists but simply the folly of man from beginning to end.

...realize you have not and will likely never reach complete understanding and adjust the strength of your beliefs accordingly.

Thank you. I hope I do; undoubtedly I often fail. One of the reasons for my participation here is that, not only does trying to express what I am thinking sometimes end up raising challenges, I also get to test what I think against other minds.

I am a monist—think “Zen,” although I find expression of the so-called “perennial philosophy” in most of the world’s religions (well, at least those I have looked at), even if that expression is sometimes considered heretical by the majority. In Judaism, it is not, and I started studying Judaism in depth some years ago when I found, relatively late in life, that I had some Jewish ancestry. So, I spend a lot of time there, but I cross the religious boundaries fairly freely (to the chagrin of some, no doubt—though I have friends on here who disagree with me fiercely most of the time, but who remain friends).

I once had a kind of tongue-in-cheek conversation with one of my wife’s colleagues, who happens to be Wiccan. She asked me what my religion was. I replied: “Heretic.” She didn’t know quite what to say. We talked about religion for awhile, and she suggested maybe I should give some thought to Wicca (with which I was not totally unfamiliar) as a religious expression. I said: “Undoubtedly, I’d be a heretic there as well.”

I have a poetic rendering of John 3:8—

Wind-fire where it wishes blows;
the sound of it you hear, but do not know
whence it comes nor where it goes—
those who are born of wind-fire wayfare so.

(The Greek word I have rendered “wind-fire” is pneuma, and is normally translated as wind, breath or spirit. Most translations of the verse in question translate it as “wind” in the first occurrence, and as “spirit” in the second; in the Greek it is the same word in both places. I added fire after reading that some Stoics held fire to be the element associated with pneuma, in their philosophy.)

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yes, my conversion is the result of years of soul searching and a great deal of emotional pain. In the end, I could not solve the problem of theodicy without engaging in wild leaps of logic bordering on comical. Those that claim to have solved the problem "by recourse to notions of free will and other incoherencies, have merely heaped bad philosophy ont ...[text shortened]... equately rewarded by the final emergence of Hitler and Stalin and the H bomb."

TheSkipper

I was lucky and saw the light at the age of 8. My mom had enrolled me in a Lutheran school, which had high educational standards but you had the Catechism shoved down your throat. I liked singing in the choir, however. What showed me the light was the fact that my granma was Pentacostal. I was lucky there! She informed me, when I was 8, that if I wasn't baptized in the PENTACOSTAL way (total, if brief, dunking in,er, holy water). So to make her happy, I did that, never feeling sillier, and saw right then the BS inherent in christianity. Never regretted my decision at any time since. ATT I could not understand why one supposedly christian faith would so utterly denounce another supposedly christian faith. It definitely made me see the light.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Islam, at this moment in history, is being used (and quite successfully) to promote huge amounts of violence and hatred.

A factual statement, carefully made...

From what i can see it need not be perverted much, if at all, to accomplish this goal.

This I tend to disagree with—but see my post using the example of Jewish divorce to see h ...[text shortened]... dialectical structure, which does not correspond to anything that I can find in the Bible, say.[/b]

The Skipper: "Islam, at this moment in history, is being used (and quite successfully) to promote huge amounts of violence and hatred."

Vistesd: "A factual statement, carefully made... "


I wish people would use the same care when making statements about Christianity ...... instead of devaluating the debate and using the facts in a cheap political way .... oh well .....

Originally posted by ivanhoe


I wish people would use the same care when making statements about Christianity

That shalt not covet.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What do you think it is?

1) Their mistreatment of women
2) Their suicidal aggression
3) Their rejection of Jesus

Ignorance is bliss.