The worst thing about religion

Originally posted by twhitehead
1. One major harmful effect of religion is an encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead. For example the way that ID is being pushed on the education system in the US even though most of its proponents almost certainly don't believe it anyway and certainly lie in its support.
2. The misuse of religion for money making purposes. I k ...[text shortened]... n and the conflict is largely as a result of two religious groups not agreeing with each other.

You are missing the millions of people who are helped through the uncountable number of religious organizations.

Yes there are a few scam artists - but they are in everything and not only religion.

Religious conflicts do exists. However, we have conflicts all over the world that don't involve religion. Most religions are peaceful ones and only a few have the escalation of violence as okay. You take away religion you will have more violence.

I can't speak for all the religions out there but the Catholic Church encourages people to learn and question their faith.

I am not sure where you live or what our experience has been with certain religions but I have yet to see a person become a priest or nun for the money.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Yes, but then again, no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

I ask for harmful effects of religion and the best you can do is the Spanish inquisition? You can get persecution without religion!

Find somthing that really sticks to religion

Religions are seponsible for a lot of positive stuff.

-generally promote nonviolence. I can barely think of any religions that do promote it.

-Help the poor - uncountable numbers of such organizations

-Followers find purpose in life (I guess I should say most anyway)

etc.

Originally posted by twhitehead
1. One major harmful effect of religion is an encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead. For example the way that ID is being pushed on the education system in the US even though most of its proponents almost certainly don't believe it anyway and certainly lie in its support.
2. The misuse of religion for money making purposes. I k ...[text shortened]... n and the conflict is largely as a result of two religious groups not agreeing with each other.

You should find something that doesn't fit the so called non-religion types as well. Since everything you brought up can be done outside of religion too, which takes me back to you are more into slamming people verses religion when you speak about things that fit people not just religion, since if what you are saying is done outside of religion too, it should not be used to belittle just religion.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You should find something that doesn't fit the so called non-religion types as well. Since everything you brought up can be done outside of religion too, which takes me back to you are more into slamming people verses religion when you speak about things that fit people not just religion, since if what you are saying is done outside of religion too, it should not be used to belittle just religion.
Kelly

Hindsight is 20/20. When Christians do wrong, you call them evil people; when they do right, you call them Christians.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You should find something that doesn't fit the so called non-religion types as well. Since everything you brought up can be done outside of religion too, which takes me back to you are more into slamming people verses religion when you speak about things that fit people not just religion, since if what you are saying is done outside of religion too, it should not be used to belittle just religion.
Kelly

So you are back to the "we all do it so keep quiet" argument.
Yes I agree that cultural differences are often as big a cause of conflict as differences in religion. But that does not get religion of the hook.
I have mentioned that communist use the "keep the people ignorant" tactic as well but that does not get religion off the hook.
Politicians use their political positions to make money for themselves. That does not get religion of the hook.

Do you think that religion is perfect and must never be criticized? Sounds very similar to the communist attitude. Why does no theist want to talk about the bad sides of religion?

eagleeye222001 seems to think that if there is some good in something then we cannot criticize it.

Religion is man’s attempt to make himself right before God. God is not interested in religion. He wants a relationship with men. There is a difference between “religious” people and people who have a right relationship with God. If you have the right relationship with God, your relationship with other people will be right.

Originally posted by eagleeye222001
I ask for harmful effects of religion and the best you can do is the Spanish inquisition? You can get persecution without religion!

Find somthing that really sticks to religion

Religions are seponsible for a lot of positive stuff.

-generally promote nonviolence. I can barely think of any religions that do promote it.

-Help the poor - unc ...[text shortened]... such organizations

-Followers find purpose in life (I guess I should say most anyway)

etc.

Hey,

I could go down the well travelled route of;

a) the crusades,
b) "witch" burning,
c) persecution of gays,
d) torture and murder of "heretics"
e) the beheading of 4,500 people by Charlemagne because they refused to convert to Christianity,
f) the Albigensian heresies,
g) current Catholic /Protestant conflict, such as N. Ireland.

But hey, if you want to spoil a perfectly good Monty Python pun, go ahead.

Originally posted by masscat
Religion is man’s attempt to make himself right before God. God is not interested in religion. He wants a relationship with men. There is a difference between “religious” people and people who have a right relationship with God. If you have the right relationship with God, your relationship with other people will be right.

Apparently the best way to have a relationship with your God is to do it knee deep in blood.

Originally posted by twhitehead
1. One major harmful effect of religion is an encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead. For example the way that ID is being pushed on the education system in the US even though most of its proponents almost certainly don't believe it anyway and certainly lie in its support.
2. The misuse of religion for money making purposes. I k ...[text shortened]... n and the conflict is largely as a result of two religious groups not agreeing with each other.

If you are going to slam religion, bring some real reasons to the table.

-you mention something about "encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead." Will please use a substantial example that directly involves religion instead of the off base I.D. example.

-Yes there are religious scams out there. However, religion brings a lot more positive benefits than negatives. I rarely hear about religious scams. Could you provide evidence for your claims? And more than one or two. How about a giant list since you claim so much in your statement.

-I said this in an earlier post. I don't see people dedicating their lives to Christ and/or becoming priests and nuns in the Catholic Church for the money.

-World War II was over religion right? What about WWI? The Korean War? Vietnam? The Gulf War? The United States decided that Iraq needed to be Christian right? I agree that there are a lot of different religions in areas of conflict but I disagree completely that religion is to blame.

Originally posted by eagleeye222001
If you are going to slam religion, bring some real reasons to the table.

-you mention something about "encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead." Will please use a substantial example that directly involves religion instead of the off base I.D. example.

What do you mean by off base?

I can give many examples of attempts by religious people to deceive their followers including many creationist websites, the situation in some muslim countries where education for girls is discouraged, the situation in Europe when translation of the Bible was discouraged and the situation where the Theory of Evolution is discouraged because of its perceived threat to a religion.
However I know that you are aware of much of this, but just don't want to see it.

-Yes there are religious scams out there. However, religion brings a lot more positive benefits than negatives.
That was not what the discussion was about. Why should you sweep the negatives under the carpet just because the positives are more than the negatives?

I rarely hear about religious scams.
You must be blind and deaf.

Could you provide evidence for your claims? And more than one or two. How about a giant list since you claim so much in your statement.
I know of plenty of people who have got rich of religion and I am sure you do too. Many of them clearly have getting rich and influential as one of the top priorities.

-I said this in an earlier post. I don't see people dedicating their lives to Christ and/or becoming priests and nuns in the Catholic Church for the money.
My personal experience with catholic priest and nuns so far is that they do not have money in mind and I have been very very impressed by some. But they are hardly the only religious leaders out there.

-World War II was over religion right? What about WWI? The Korean War? Vietnam? The Gulf War? The United States decided that Iraq needed to be Christian right? I agree that there are a lot of different religions in areas of conflict but I disagree completely that religion is to blame.
I think that the Iraq war has a lot to do with religion. Or at least that is the claim of the United States Government.
Vietnam was about ideology which is a similar problem.
Giving examples of conflicts which are not based on religion however does not in any way negate the fact that many conflicts are.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Hindsight is 20/20. When Christians do wrong, you call them evil people; when they do right, you call them Christians.

No, I call bad things done by people, bad things done by people. I don't worry about calling them Christian or not. The only time I try to label them is when the act they do brings with it, a label, such as playing baseball would make one a baseball player. How you treat people is up to you, please don't speak for me in how I label them, since you don't seem to have a clue.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you are back to the "we all do it so keep quiet" argument.
Yes I agree that cultural differences are often as big a cause of conflict as differences in religion. But that does not get religion of the hook.
I have mentioned that communist use the "keep the people ignorant" tactic as well but that does not get religion off the hook.
Politicians use th ...[text shortened]... ye222001 seems to think that if there is some good in something then we cannot criticize it.

Well, when the complaint comes in 'Christians do this or that', it carries with it the thought, that some how it is just 'Christians' doing it, whatever it is. I don't believe I ever said, 'we all do it so keep quiet' that may be something you invented, not I.

My point is if you are going to slam religion, do it where religion is the cause, and if you are going to do that, don't pick a reason to slam religion that occurs outside people's ideas of religion too. If it is a human trait to hate other people, it isn't because of religion it is because people hate other people. If people out side of what we call religion steal, it isn't a religious issue but a human one.

There are a lot of things we as a people do, we see people who call themselves pro-life, murder other people, we see people in positions of trust violate it by stealing or abusing their power, if you are going to blame religion, find something to hang on religion's head that does not fit most if not all of the whole human race.
Kelly

Originally posted by eagleeye222001
If you are going to slam religion, bring some real reasons to the table.

-you mention something about "encouragement of ignorance or a tendency to deliberately mislead." Will please use a substantial example that directly involves religion instead of the off base I.D. example.

-Yes there are religious scams out there. However, religion brings ...[text shortened]... different religions in areas of conflict but I disagree completely that religion is to blame.

Why you ignore my post? I can go from a through to z many times over, if you like.

Originally posted by KellyJay
My point is if you are going to slam religion, do it where religion is the cause, and if you are going to do that, don't pick a reason to slam religion that occurs outside people's ideas of religion too. If it is a human trait to hate other people, it isn't because of religion it is because people hate other people. If people out side of what we call religion steal, it isn't a religious issue but a human one.

We are back to your "the tool is irrelevant" claim. You are claiming that if somebody shoots someone else then the gun had nothing to do with it as people commit murder by other means as well.

All the points I gave are cases of people using religion, or simply the side effects of religion on people. So even if non-religious people commit similar acts, in the cited examples religion is the tool or cause.
If stealing is made easier by religion then yes it is a religious issue as well as a human one. And yes many religious leaders steal from or otherwise deceive their followers.

Originally posted by twhitehead
We are back to your "the tool is irrelevant" claim. You are claiming that if somebody shoots someone else then the gun had nothing to do with it as people commit murder by other means as well.

All the points I gave are cases of people using religion, or simply the side effects of religion on people. So even if non-religious people commit similar acts, ...[text shortened]... s a human one. And yes many religious leaders steal from or otherwise deceive their followers.

That is where we disagree; I don't believe that what people claim what we call religion is always the cause of these things when religion is involved, but the tool that people use. You can claim religion as your means to an end, which doesn't make religion the cause, but the tool or weapon of choice. There are plenty of times people were beheaded without what we call religion being involved, there are plenty of times that people had things stolen through lies where what we call religion wasn’t involved, and there are plenty of times where persecution of people occurred where what we call religion wasn’t involved. This in my mind settles that people will use whatever tool is available to achieve whatever it is they desire, even if their religion speaks against something like adultery, that doesn’t stop them from doing what they will in the face of knowledge they have that speaks against it.
Kelly