The worst thing ever.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So switch off your brain in droves people. Someone gets sick, well, let's not go against God and CURE them - let them die - God will solve it.

Sorry, but people like you, people which will rationalise the most horrible things in the name of God strike me as being sick, apathetic individuals, who really need to find out first-hand exactly what their messiah did for them.

I don't think this is what he means, or at least, I don't know of any Christian who thinks this way.

Originally posted by whodey
Well, now is your oppurtunity to complain and whine. What is the worst thing ever? Is it death, illness, being poor, paying taxes, loosing a game of chess to someone ranked well below you who you are destroying slowly but then realize you have been timed out because you did not move fast enough? What's your beef?

Dishonesty and everything it leads to.

Originally posted by whodey
There is truth in what you say, however, for those who are of faith the worst fate is the second death, not the first. Also, when those of faith suffer in our present world or when they die physically it is sad, however, there is still hope for them in the mind of a believer. The Bible says that the suffering of our present world is negligable compared to t ...[text shortened]... hem being at peace and entering God's rest always trumps that later pain of watching them pass.

Does it not bother you that before that brief moment of joy/relief (whatever it was) your God had actually caused the previous months of pain and suffering?

Or do you not believe in an all powerful God? In which case, why do you worship it?

It is this very question that led me to give up my faith. It just can't be answered satisfactorily by the theist and that was the tipping point for me. I concluded that either God is a jerk who causes our suffering or he is not capable of stopping it and consequently does not deserve to be worshiped.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Does it not bother you that before that brief moment of joy/relief (whatever it was) your God had actually caused the previous months of pain and suffering?

Or do you not believe in an all powerful God? In which case, why do you worship it?

It is this very question that led me to give up my faith. It just can't be answered satisfactorily by the the ...[text shortened]... uffering or he is not capable of stopping it and consequently does not deserve to be worshiped.

Of coarse it bothers me that I suffer. I would be lying if I said otherwise. You must realize, however, that the faith that Christians adhere to is a faith based upon untold suffering in terms of past lives of God's people throughout the bible. Now if the Bible made us think that this life should be a sugar coated life and said that no harm or pain would ever come your way if you are believer then I would be forced to confront this discrepency and abandon my faith. However, the Bible is clear in that as a believer we will endure hardship and suffering. However, it says those who endure in their faith despite such circomstances will end up on the winning side of things. There is a scripture that says something to the effect that all things work together for good to them that love God and who are called according to his purpose. Those things ment for our ill, such as Christ being tortured and killed, are then used and turned around to bite the devil in the (edited) ss! In the end we will endure suffering and hardship so why not at least come out on top of it all when it is all said and done?

The next question then is why. Why did God's prophets throughout endure such hardships and persecutions and deaths via the hands of people they were attempting to help? Why did Christ have to be tortured and die on a cross for my sins? Why did all of Christis disciples, save one, have to die a martyres death for attempting to do nothing more than share the good news with those who were lost? Why must man be subject to every physical, and emotional, and sexual, and pshycological disorder that is humanly possible? More importantly, however, why must all men and women all die physically?

To make a long answer short I will simply say that sin is the source of ALL our sufferings. When sin entered the world death and suffering entered the world as a result. Unfortunatly, this does not merely effect those who are "guilty", rather, the innocent are also effected such as God's prophets and Christ himself. Sin is like a bomb going off, if you will. You say that if God is all powerful he can do anything he wants, no? Does this then include allowing us to have free will and choose sin? We don't like that explanation because no one likes to be held accountable including myself, however, that is the plain simple truth. Nor do we like to suffer due to others sins, but unfortunatly for the innocent, the ill effects of sin cares nothing about who deserves such suffering and pain.

Originally posted by whodey
Of coarse it bothers me that I suffer. I would be lying if I said otherwise. You must realize, however, that the faith that Christians adhere to is a faith based upon untold suffering in terms of past lives of God's people throughout the bible. Now if the Bible made us think that this life should be a sugar coated life and said that no harm or pain would e ...[text shortened]... innocent, the ill effects of sin cares nothing about who deserves such suffering and pain.

That does not exactly answer my question, although i appreciate you taking the time.

You attemted to explain why God's hands are tied when it comes to our suffering (at least in some instances) by asserting that our free will allows for sin and sin seperates us from God. Ok, fine. You forget, however, that it is your very own theology which states that God not only made the universe and all it's parts but also made the rules. If God is all powerful he could have set it up so that sin did not bother him, he could have not created sin in the first place.

Do you get it? You claim that your God is all powerful and then claim he is powerless against the rules he, himself, created.

He doesn't exist, mate. Or if he does he has nothing to do with the Bible.

Originally posted by whodey
I don't think this is what he means, or at least, I don't know of any Christian who thinks this way.

It is, however, implicit in your very doctorine.

If something happens, it's because you omniscience, omnipotent deigned it to be. Why fight God? You can't possibly win - just let all the suffering he creates go unchallenged.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It is, however, implicit in your very doctorine.

If something happens, it's because you omniscience, omnipotent deigned it to be. Why fight God? You can't possibly win - just let all the suffering he creates go unchallenged.

But it seems to me that he is being challenged. However, I find its kinda like bashing your head into a wall. In the end all you are left with is a bad headache.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
That does not exactly answer my question, although i appreciate you taking the time.

You attemted to explain why God's hands are tied when it comes to our suffering (at least in some instances) by asserting that our free will allows for sin and sin seperates us from God. Ok, fine. You forget, however, that it is your very own theology which states th ...[text shortened]... mself, created.

He doesn't exist, mate. Or if he does he has nothing to do with the Bible.

So God made the rules? Perhaps he did not make the rules as much as he is the rules. What I am getting at is that perhaps God has a nature that cannot be altered in any way. For example, the Bible says that he is a God of love. Love demands a choice to love back, hence free will exists. Sin is simply the choice not to obey the voice of love which has your best interest at heart and you go another direction for whatever reason. Perhaps you question his motives in that he is not benevolent. Perhaps you question his insight into whether it is really best for you to obey him. Perhaps you really, really want to do it anyway despite the consequences that may occur to you and to other innocent people. Once you go your own direction, however, he must honer your decision and withdraw himself from you otherwise free will is but an illusion. Then once he has withdrawn himself from you what are you left with? He is love, he is life, and everything good comes from him. What then have you chosen?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
That does not exactly answer my question, although i appreciate you taking the time.

You attemted to explain why God's hands are tied when it comes to our suffering (at least in some instances) by asserting that our free will allows for sin and sin seperates us from God. Ok, fine. You forget, however, that it is your very own theology which states th mself, created.

He doesn't exist, mate. Or if he does he has nothing to do with the Bible.

Just to follow up on the whole free will issue, it has been said before that God could have created free will minus the possibility of sinning. For example, Adam and Eve could have been put in the garden with the option of eating a variety of things minus the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have free will to pick and choose things except rejecting their God. Or God could have made them in such a way that they would never have rejected him but still with free will to accept or reject other things other than their God. However, is either scenerio a demonstration of love? Perhaps someone could rig you to never reject them or put you in a situation in which you would never have the oppurtunity to reject them. Is such a situation love or are you merely a helpless pawn in such a scenerio?

Originally posted by whodey
So God made the rules? Perhaps he did not make the rules as much as he is the rules. What I am getting at is that perhaps God has a nature that cannot be altered in any way. For example, the Bible says that he is a God of love. Love demands a choice to love back, hence free will exists. Sin is simply the choice not to obey the voice of love which has yo ...[text shortened]... t with? He is love, he is life, and everything good comes from him. What then have you chosen?

I don't think you are getting this.

When I say God made the rules (assuming he exists) I'm saying he could have set this whole thing up in any way he wanted to. Up could be down, right could be left, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria. Instead of gravity being a force which pulls us towards the earth it could be a force which pushes us from space onto the earth...who knows but the possibilities are endless.

My point in all of this is that he could have very easily created us to have both free will and be unable to piss him off so badly that we need to spend an eternity in hell. Just because you can't seem to concieve of such a thing does not mean he can't. Remember, your God is all powerful, he can do ANYTHING. Any God that claims he can do anything and then creates a system as flawed as this one is not only incompetent but not worth my time.

Originally posted by whodey
Just to follow up on the whole free will issue, it has been said before that God could have created free will minus the possibility of sinning. For example, Adam and Eve could have been put in the garden with the option of eating a variety of things minus the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have free will to pick and choose things except reject ...[text shortened]... to reject them. Is such a situation love or are you merely a helpless pawn in such a scenerio?

I find it interesting that you, the theist, continually put limitations on God while I, the athiest, truly seem to understand what the idea of an all powerful God means.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I find it interesting that you, the theist, continually put limitations on God while I, the athiest, truly seem to understand what the idea of an all powerful God means.

It is not I who put limitations on God. After all, what power do I have? The Bible says that God is holy and INCAPABLE of sinning. Therefore, it is God's own word that seems to put "limitations" on him. However, what you see as limitations I simply see as who and what he is.

If you view sin as conterproductive and harmful, I would say that only an all knowing and all powerful perfect being would avoid it. Therefore, it is only an "imperfect" being who would choose it. Would or could an all knowing and all powerful being be "imperfect"? I don't think so unless he is enjoys harming himself. After all, he has the capacity to calculate far in advance the consequences of his actions thus avoiding "sin". If, on the other hand, he enjoys harming himself he would be imperfect. If he is then imperfect how can he then choose to be perfect? It seems to me that he is either one or the other.

It then stand to reason that only "imperfect" beings who are not all knowing and all powerful would choose sin at some point. God did not create sin, rather, sin is merely not choosing what God says to do and avoiding his "perfect" plan for his creation.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And God couldn't do anything about environmental pollution, if He so wanted to? Maybe your omniscient, omnipotent God didn't know it was going to happen.

And no. People don't "deserve" to suffer.

Cause and effect, you do something that causes events to occur that cause suffering, then there is suffering. Simple, God allows things to play out the way they should.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Hey man,

I've got no issues at all with Christians per se, but when they try to come across all superior it's time for a cutting down.

I'm trying to put across the point to this guy that "goddunit" is just not an acceptable excuse. If people need to be shocked into getting off their jacksie and asking a few questions, so be it.

He can't have it both ways.

I do like God did it better than nothing did it. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do like God did it better than nothing did it. 🙂
Kelly

Why?