08 Dec 07
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomDoes love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?
devoting your life to something that may not exist.
This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.
Eternal life.
08 Dec 07
Originally posted by josephwJust because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
Does love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?
This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.
Eternal life.
08 Dec 07
Originally posted by NordlysAs I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.
Just because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that comes from God. A perfect and unconditional love that we, because we are human, cannot of ourselves achieve.
Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by josephwThis post isn't debating whether or not God's love is great. It's about prioritizing your life around god, something that has so little evidence of existing.
As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.
But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.
Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
If your belief in God's love makes you happy that's terrific, but it has nothing to do with his existance.
There are people who would be miserable without their imaginary friends companionship. To them they have a reliable person to talk to or whatever else they do. The feeling of love is real, but his buddy does not exist.
This thread is only addressing the decision to guide your life on something that is completely irrational to the point where its followers justify belief by saying "you gotta have faith".
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by josephwYup. Obviously a whacko.
As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.
But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.
Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by josephwHave you ever considered Thioridazine?
As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.
But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.
Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomHow about devoting yourself to something you know exists but is fleeting and you know for a fact that it will not last forever nor does it fulfill all your needs and never will? Is that insane?
devoting your life to something that may not exist.
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by josephwYes, love and hope exist. I've felt them myself. They are emotions.
Does love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?
This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.
Eternal life.
Is God nothing more than emotion?
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by NordlysIn a sense what Joseph is saying is that when we put our faith in love and hope and justice , compassion etc we could ask the question "what exactly are we putting our faith in?" . If I put my faith in the government then on a purely basic level I am putting my faith in something that exists and can be shown to be effective (or not!).
Just because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
So if an atheist puts his faith in love etc then what is love etc? Can love to be shown to exist other than a gut feeling? What is your faith in love grounded in? Is it grounded in a reality of some sort? If so what is it? For example , as a christian I am putting my faith not just in love but specifically in the final victory of love over hate and war. The christian faith in love is grounded in a belief that the ground of all reality is founded on God's love and that God will win out in the end. Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by knightmeister"Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?"
In a sense what Joseph is saying is that when we put our faith in love and hope and justice , compassion etc we could ask the question "what exactly are we putting our faith in?" . If I put my faith in the government then on a purely basic level I am putting my faith in something that exists and can be shown to be effective (or not!).
So if an ath ...[text shortened]... Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?
The atheist can have a love grounded in reality, because there are
several things that are called love. The important part of this is what,
or who is love? Is the Love we and they are putting our faith in a sure
foundation in reality?
Kelly
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is precisely my point. If there is no external reality of love and the whole universe rests upon an ammoral, valueless and ambivalent foundation then what is the Atheist putting their faith in?
[b]"Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?"
The atheist can have a love grounded in reality, because there are
several things that are called love. The important part of this is what,
or who is love? Is the Love we and they are putting our faith in a sure
foundation in reality?
Kelly[/b]
They say they are putting their faith in love , hope etc but according to their world view there is no such thing. Ironically they say we are putting our faith in something that doesn't exist (which may or may not be true) but at least we believe that it does , they are putting their faith in something which they confess is not there.
09 Dec 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI would still not say in the Atheist view that there isn't anything as
This is precisely my point. If there is no external reality of love and the whole universe rests upon an ammoral, valueless and ambivalent foundation then what is the Atheist putting their faith in?
They say they are putting their faith in love , hope etc but according to their world view there is no such thing. Ironically they say we are putting ...[text shortened]... lieve that it does , they are putting their faith in something which they confess is not there.
love, again the word love might be used by both the Atheist and a
Christian and we could carry on a conversation about it, but not
be talking about the same thing. I agree for the Atheist there isn’t an
external reality of Love, or Love personified in God for the Atheist
love is completely human emotion that is only found within the human
experience, since they have either not expereinced God or refuse
to acknowledge Him if they did they have nothing they can draw
on to relate. We are just not talking about the same thing when we
speak of love, to use "external reality" or "personified" clears it up for
you and me, but it may be a distinction that is missed by someone
not following closely your use of the word Love.
Kelly