1. Joined
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    08 Dec '07 20:33
    devoting your life to something that may not exist.
  2. Joined
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    08 Dec '07 22:59
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    devoting your life to something that may not exist.
    Does love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?

    This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.

    Eternal life.
  3. The sky
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    08 Dec '07 23:43
    Originally posted by josephw
    Does love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?

    This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.

    Eternal life.
    Just because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
  4. Joined
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    08 Dec '07 23:56
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Just because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
    As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.

    But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that comes from God. A perfect and unconditional love that we, because we are human, cannot of ourselves achieve.

    Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
  5. Joined
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    09 Dec '07 06:19
    Originally posted by josephw
    As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.

    But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.

    Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
    This post isn't debating whether or not God's love is great. It's about prioritizing your life around god, something that has so little evidence of existing.

    If your belief in God's love makes you happy that's terrific, but it has nothing to do with his existance.

    There are people who would be miserable without their imaginary friends companionship. To them they have a reliable person to talk to or whatever else they do. The feeling of love is real, but his buddy does not exist.

    This thread is only addressing the decision to guide your life on something that is completely irrational to the point where its followers justify belief by saying "you gotta have faith".
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    09 Dec '07 10:39
    Originally posted by josephw
    As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.

    But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.

    Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
    Yup. Obviously a whacko.
  7. Joined
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    09 Dec '07 10:59
    Originally posted by josephw
    As I've said numerous times before in other threads, it's not about religion. But you make a good point. I would not relegate your values and propensity for love to meaninglessness just because you don't share the same belief in God as I do.

    But within the context of this forum in general, and this thread in particular, my comments are about a love that c ...[text shortened]... ourselves achieve.

    Eternal life is a gift that only God can give with unconditional love.
    Have you ever considered Thioridazine?
  8. Joined
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    09 Dec '07 18:31
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    devoting your life to something that may not exist.
    How about devoting yourself to something you know exists but is fleeting and you know for a fact that it will not last forever nor does it fulfill all your needs and never will? Is that insane?
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    09 Dec '07 18:34
    Originally posted by josephw
    Does love exist? How about hope? Why not have something positive to believe in instead of a false set of values with no meaning or purpose?

    This is not a guessing game. It's about something very real and tangible that offers something no one or anything else in this world can or does.

    Eternal life.
    Yes, love and hope exist. I've felt them myself. They are emotions.

    Is God nothing more than emotion?
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    09 Dec '07 18:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes, love and hope exist. I've felt them myself. They are emotions.

    Is God nothing more than emotion?
    God is the source of all love and hope. This is what is ment by saying that God is love.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    09 Dec '07 19:02
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Just because I don't believe in any gods or in eternal life, it doesn't mean I don't believe in love or hope. My values aren't that different from Christian values, and I don't find them meaningless. Do you believe that values like love and compassion become false and meaningless if you don't put them in a religious context?
    In a sense what Joseph is saying is that when we put our faith in love and hope and justice , compassion etc we could ask the question "what exactly are we putting our faith in?" . If I put my faith in the government then on a purely basic level I am putting my faith in something that exists and can be shown to be effective (or not!).

    So if an atheist puts his faith in love etc then what is love etc? Can love to be shown to exist other than a gut feeling? What is your faith in love grounded in? Is it grounded in a reality of some sort? If so what is it? For example , as a christian I am putting my faith not just in love but specifically in the final victory of love over hate and war. The christian faith in love is grounded in a belief that the ground of all reality is founded on God's love and that God will win out in the end. Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    09 Dec '07 19:08
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    In a sense what Joseph is saying is that when we put our faith in love and hope and justice , compassion etc we could ask the question "what exactly are we putting our faith in?" . If I put my faith in the government then on a purely basic level I am putting my faith in something that exists and can be shown to be effective (or not!).

    So if an ath ...[text shortened]... Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?
    "Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?"

    The atheist can have a love grounded in reality, because there are
    several things that are called love. The important part of this is what,
    or who is love? Is the Love we and they are putting our faith in a sure
    foundation in reality?
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Dec '07 20:35
    Theism is a rational response to the human condition. That's precisely what's wrong with it.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
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    09 Dec '07 20:37
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    [b]"Can atheist faith in love be the same if the love one believes in is not grounded in reality?"

    The atheist can have a love grounded in reality, because there are
    several things that are called love. The important part of this is what,
    or who is love? Is the Love we and they are putting our faith in a sure
    foundation in reality?
    Kelly[/b]
    This is precisely my point. If there is no external reality of love and the whole universe rests upon an ammoral, valueless and ambivalent foundation then what is the Atheist putting their faith in?

    They say they are putting their faith in love , hope etc but according to their world view there is no such thing. Ironically they say we are putting our faith in something that doesn't exist (which may or may not be true) but at least we believe that it does , they are putting their faith in something which they confess is not there.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    09 Dec '07 21:05
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    This is precisely my point. If there is no external reality of love and the whole universe rests upon an ammoral, valueless and ambivalent foundation then what is the Atheist putting their faith in?

    They say they are putting their faith in love , hope etc but according to their world view there is no such thing. Ironically they say we are putting ...[text shortened]... lieve that it does , they are putting their faith in something which they confess is not there.
    I would still not say in the Atheist view that there isn't anything as
    love, again the word love might be used by both the Atheist and a
    Christian and we could carry on a conversation about it, but not
    be talking about the same thing. I agree for the Atheist there isn’t an
    external reality of Love, or Love personified in God for the Atheist
    love is completely human emotion that is only found within the human
    experience, since they have either not expereinced God or refuse
    to acknowledge Him if they did they have nothing they can draw
    on to relate. We are just not talking about the same thing when we
    speak of love, to use "external reality" or "personified" clears it up for
    you and me, but it may be a distinction that is missed by someone
    not following closely your use of the word Love.
    Kelly
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