Originally posted by Nicksten
I say evil created itself.
From my point of view I really don't know what you are really asking but let me try.
I am not in the mood to type something long, will keep it short.
Evil once did not exist.
It was the lack of love which divided the devil from God.
I say evil created itself.
Love is a feeling that you feel that you can not explain feeling. Love is indescribable. ...[text shortened]... ous different things but from a Christian point of view it could also include: free of sin.
Not sure what you mean. How can something create itself? How could it be that something is responsible for bringing itself into existence?
Besides, I thought you were committed to the idea that, ultimately, God created the world and everything in it. Is that not correct?
Love is a feeling that you feel that you can not explain feeling. Love is indescribable.
Okay, so you maintain you cannot explain or describe love directly. But we should at least be able to outline things that are consistent (or not) with loving attitudes. For example, consider the plethora of natural evils that exist and all the destruction and suffering they wreak; some examples might be cancers, tsunamis, plagues, etc. How could it be loving for God to allow and/or provide for such things in His creation? Another example: how could it be loving for God to sentence a person to eternal punishment? Another example: in the bible it shows God sanctioning genocide at various times; how could this be loving?
Eternal punishment is not a gift.
If it was, technically I could have refused right? Rather it is a pure punishment.
Well, that was one of my points: actual gifts are such that they can be politely refused without having to face eternal punishment. So that begs the question: how does it make sense to say that your God's offer of salvation is a "gift"?
This brings up another point related to justice. How could it ever possibly be just to sentence a person to eternal punishment? There are at least a couple reasons to think that such a thing could not be just. For one, justice requires that punishments fit the crime. How could some temporal mischief merit being punished for ever and ever and ever? For two, eternal punishment defeats the other points of possible justification for punishment, such as the aim of rehabilitation. How could eternal punishment ever have the aim of making a person a better person?
If a doctor tells you, I have the gift (knowledge) to save your life and you refuse to go for the operation, you die, end of story.
The gift of salvation is to be saved, thus receiving eternal life.
God is the "doctor" here, He has the gift of salvation, take it or leave it.
Well, in a way, you are just making my point for me. My point was that you theists are taking a term like 'gift' and distorting its meaning in such a way that it no longer has any resemblance to how that term is employed in everyday affairs. Look what you just did here. You just equated 'gift' with 'knowledge'. Of course, one could say that a smart doctor is a gifted doctor, or whatnot, but you are already starting to stretch things.
Anyway, I doubt any responsible doctors are egocentric enough to think that their services are a gift to the patient, since responsible doctors have deep senses of responsibility for their patients. If a doctor told me he had the gift and told me to take it or leave it, I'd probably tell him goodbye and then go find some other capable doctor who actually knows how to interact with prospective patients.
Besides, your analogy doesn't seem that apt. Perhaps if you stipulated that the doctor himself is ultimately personally responsible for providing for my illness in the first place; and if you further stipulated that upon refusing the "gift" of his services, the doctor would take out a flame thrower and set me on fire for all eternity; then maybe you'd be on to something.
God also wants us to be fair, lawful, moral etc.
So, as a simple example, God would never want us to, say, sanction genocide, right? He wouldn't want us to be, say, jealous or vengeful, either, right? You'd agree with that?