1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 10:582 edits
    Whether Christian or Atheist surely we must all agree that Christ's message is a thing of beauty. He subverts power by being born a lowly carpenter , shuns violence , plays with children (who flock to him because children always sense when an adult is available and human) , assures those who thirst for justice and peace and turns a symbol of shame and agonising death into a synbol of reconciliation and freedom. The image of an all powerful God becoming a lowly carpenter when he could have been a king.

    Jesus goes right to the centre of our deepest yearnings to be accepted and loved DESPITE all our brokeness , darkness and pride. He walks right into all our insecurities with no sense of reproach or judgement , only to whisper to us "you are my beloved". But the beauty of Jesus is not a slushy beauty full of fuzzy warm feelings , this is tough love that simply will not/cannot give up against all the odds. A love that goes to death itself (and beyond)

    Probably the most beautiful though is the image of unconditional love and forgiveness gaining victory over judgement and hate. Isn't this what we most need in our world of wars and terrorism ? Tough , single minded forgiveness of our "enemies"? I imagine sometimes what Jesus would have done about 9/11. My guess is that he would have commissioned a hospital for sick children of Islamic militants and fundamentalists and made the WTC site a centre for world reconciliation. Imagine Osama Bin laden falling ill and being invited to such a place for his treatment!! Love and humanity over brute violence and revenge. Idealistic maybe (or maybe not?)

    This is how radical Jesus would be in our world. Atheist or not , he's a thing of beauty is he not? What greater dream or inspiring image for humanity can there be?
  2. Cape Town
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    03 Sep '07 11:24
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Whether Christian or Atheist surely we must all agree that Christ's message is a thing of beauty.
    Your interpretation of it probably is - to you.
    However as an atheist I must keep in mind:
    1. It is probably Pauls message you are talking about.
    2. There is very little evidence that Christ actually lived or did anything attributed to him.
    3. The message can be interpreted in so many ways in if you choose you can interpret it as a thing of beauty.
    4. There are modern day people such as Ghandi or Nelson Mandela that are just as worthy (or more so) of praise when it comes to an outstanding message of love and reconciliation.
    5. Christs followers do not generally seem to exhibit the same ideals. Just look at Bush and the Iraq war for example.
    6. Much of the so called 'message' doesn't make a whole lot of sense and relys on people skimming over the details in order to see the beauty. People see what they want to see and ignore most of the facts.
    7. The Lord of the Rings is even more beautiful.

    Its rather like that 'feel good' story about cartwheels you had, it may be a thing of beauty to you but to me it looks like a mad man doing cartwheels at bus stops because he heard voices in his head.

    There are beautiful things in the new testament. I think that the Love your Neighbor commandment is a brilliant one but only because I more or less believe it already. Sadly it is not followed by very many people. In fact I would contend that most stories / concepts etc that we find inspiring etc are only beautiful / inspiring to us because they reflect our own beliefs or ideals we aspire to but do not necessarily follow.
  3. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Sep '07 11:29
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Whether Christian or Atheist surely we must all agree that Christ's message is a thing of beauty. He subverts power by being born a lowly carpenter , shuns violence , plays with children (who flock to him because children always sense when an adult is available and human) , assures those who thirst for justice and peace and turns a symbol of shame and ...[text shortened]... ing of beauty is he not? What greater dream or inspiring image for humanity can there be?
    Some of what Jesus said was beautiful, some was not. Overall he's one of the nicer deities if you cut out his "father", the OT God, but of course no religion follows Jesus without also following the OT God.

    Matthew 5:17 shows that Jesus approved of all the cruelty and harshness of the OT.

    Matthew 10:34-37 are quite creepy. They show a harsher side of Jesus.

    Matthew 13:41-42 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 show that Jesus is directly responsible for casting people into a furnace of fire (presumably Hell).

    Mark 4:11-12 has Jesus telling his disciples that he speaks in parables so as to keep down the number of people who are saved by confusing them.

    Mark 7:9-10 seems to show that Jesus agrees with the OT law that children who curse their parents should be killed.

    Luke 19:27 demonstrates the cestus Cristus - the mailed fist of Christ. If you won't allow Jesus to reign over you, you must be executed.

    John 6:53 shows that Jesus was into ritual cannibalism.

    Revelation 1:7 portrays Jesus as a being who brings tragedy, as implied by the fact that "all kindreds of the Earth shall wail because of him."

    Revelation 2:23 shows that Jesus murders the children of women he disapproves of.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:43
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Is it an expression of the victory of love over hate , gentleness over might , justice over corruption , weakness over power? If so then yes it is a thing of beauty.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:45
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Your interpretation of it probably is - to you.
    However as an atheist I must keep in mind:
    1. It is probably Pauls message you are talking about.
    2. There is very little evidence that Christ actually lived or did anything attributed to him.
    3. The message can be interpreted in so many ways in if you choose you can interpret it as a thing of beauty.
    4 ...[text shortened]... because they reflect our own beliefs or ideals we aspire to but do not necessarily follow.
    4. There are modern day people such as Ghandi or Nelson Mandela that are just as worthy (or more so) of praise when it comes to an outstanding message of love and reconciliation. WHITEY

    Ghandi for example saw Jesus as an example top follow . In any case I believe that Jesus was working through people like Ghandi to further his kingdom.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:48
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Your interpretation of it probably is - to you.
    However as an atheist I must keep in mind:
    1. It is probably Pauls message you are talking about.
    2. There is very little evidence that Christ actually lived or did anything attributed to him.
    3. The message can be interpreted in so many ways in if you choose you can interpret it as a thing of beauty.
    4 ...[text shortened]... because they reflect our own beliefs or ideals we aspire to but do not necessarily follow.
    Its rather like that 'feel good' story about cartwheels you had, it may be a thing of beauty to you but to me it looks like a mad man doing cartwheels at bus stops because he heard voices in his head. WHITEY

    I didn't really expect you to see it to be honest.
  7. Cape Town
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    03 Sep '07 13:15
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I didn't really expect you to see it to be honest.
    Thats because it isn't there. You see what you want to see not what truly is.
    Your interpretation of the Jesus story is unique to you and heavily influenced by your desires and to a large extent interpretation rather than meaning actually contained in the story.
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    03 Sep '07 18:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Some of what Jesus said was beautiful, some was not. Overall he's one of the nicer deities if you cut out his "father", the OT God, but of course no religion follows Jesus without also following the OT God.

    Matthew 5:17 shows that Jesus approved of all the cruelty and harshness of the OT.

    Matthew 10:34-37 are quite creepy. They show a harsher ...[text shortened]... him."

    Revelation 2:23 shows that Jesus murders the children of women he disapproves of.
    All you are doing is demonstrating that you are clever enough to wrangle something dark and evil from each saying of Christ.

    But I wonder, if your ethics is superior to that of Jesus of Nazareth where is your impact on human history? I mean obviously Jesus needs, according to you, to sit at your feet and learn a some things about morality.

    So you surpass Christ is moral goodness ?
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    03 Sep '07 19:091 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    So you surpass Christ is moral goodness ?
    Christ, the inventor of hell?

    Who isn\'t his ethical superior?
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Sep '07 21:561 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    All you are doing is demonstrating that you are clever enough to wrangle something dark and evil from each saying of Christ.

    But I wonder, if your ethics is superior to that of Jesus of Nazareth where is your impact on human history? I mean obviously Jesus needs, according to you, to sit at your feet and learn a some things about morality.

    So you surpass Christ is moral goodness ?
    You're mistaken if you think ones' ethics are proportional to ones' impact on history. I guess Hitler and Caligula must be a couple of your prophets or moral teachers.

    Jesus is dead. He has no needs.

    Comparing me to Jesus is a mistake, because I don't demand that people worship me.
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    03 Sep '07 22:302 edits
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    You're mistaken if you think ones' ethics are proportional to ones' impact on history. I guess Hitler and Caligula must be a couple of your prophets or moral teachers.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Compare what the majority of thinkers say about the impact of Hitler as compared to the impact of Jesus and perhaps you'll see that there is positive impact and negative impact.

    Compare the wisdom displayed by Caligula and that displayed by Jesus and you should see that most people see a vast difference in quality.

    You jumped to the conclusion that I mean any impact at all.

    ++++++++++++++++++
    Jesus is dead. He has no needs.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++



    No. Jesus is not only alive. Jesus is eternal life. Jesus is indestructible and incorruptible.

    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Comparing me to Jesus is a mistake, because I don't demand that people worship me.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    I agree that is is a mistake. But you invite the comparison by suggesting the terrible mistakes of Jesus upon which you feel qualified to pass judgment.

    Each one of your passages that you used were used in a very twisted way. You are not really telling people about Jesus. You are telling us about your own tortured and twisted reasonings to wish that Jesus was dead.

    You should repent of your whole philosophy and change your thinking 180 degrees around. Instead of trying to uncover the crimes of Jesus Christ why not be impressed with the extent to which He went to save you from your sins?

    You're judging the man who died and rose again for you that you might be saved from your sins.

    Even Pilate could not find fault with Jesus. Do you desire to join the mob that cried out for His crucifixion? Look how twisted your thoughts about God have become. Look what has happened to you.
  12. Going where needed.
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    03 Sep '07 23:26
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Some of what Jesus said was beautiful, some was not. Overall he's one of the nicer deities if you cut out his "father", the OT God, but of course no religion follows Jesus without also following the OT God.

    Matthew 5:17 shows that Jesus approved of all the cruelty and harshness of the OT.

    Matthew 10:34-37 are quite creepy. They show a harsher ...[text shortened]... him."

    Revelation 2:23 shows that Jesus murders the children of women he disapproves of.
    Matthew 5:17?

    "I have come not to abolish the Law nor the Prophets, but I have come to fulfill them"?

    He meant the sacrificial part of the law. Jesus would be the blood sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices. In OT times, men would have to sacrifice an animal in order to atone for their sins. However, animals' blood would not fulfill this, but rather it was a looking ahead to the true and final blood sacrifice.

    Matthew 10: 34-36 I cannot explain.

    Matthew 10:37 means that someoen must put God first and totally first in their life. To the point of when you compare the love he gives God makes it look like he hates his parents. He still loves his parents, but he loves God so much more.

    I laugh at your literal interpretation of John 6:53. THis is where the Catholics got their doctrine of Transsubstantiation.
    Jesus made the New COvenant in his blood correct?
    This means that this person must accept the New Covenant and "drink" of Jesus' blood.

    Those are the ones I can explain.
  13. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Sep '07 23:401 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    You're mistaken if you think ones' ethics are proportional to ones' impact on history. I guess Hitler and Caligula must be a couple of your prophets or moral teachers.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Compare what the majority of thinkers say about the impact of Hitler as compared to the impact of Jesus and per xion? Look how twisted your thoughts about God have become. Look what has happened to you.[/b]
    So being famous and influential does not mean you're virtuous, but all virtuous people are famous and influential. That's what you seem to be saying. Is that right? Because you're suggesting my lack of fame and influence shows my lack of morality.

    If Jesus is alive it wasn't much of a sacrifice was it? What kind of a God wants the blood sacrifice of his completely innocent firstborn, even if he's going to raise him from the dead afterwards?

    If I'm not qualified to pass judgement on Jesus, then neither are you. Yet you do judge him. You judge him to be morally perfect.

    Just because you choose to ignore all the creepy blood sacrifice of innocents and smiting of children to death for what their parents do or because they have a rude mouth doesn't mean these events aren't in the Bible.

    By the way, are you morally superior to me? Since you're judging me, and you seem to think only morally superior beings can judge, you must think you're better than me. Do you?

    The whole idea of Jesus saving people from their sins is ridiculous. It makes no sense. Why should I be impressed? The fact is, he angered people in power and was executed. That's it. He's dead. I am willing to believe he died because it's consistent with what we know happens. People do die when they are hung on a cross. However all this magic and superstitious nonsense in the Bible I don't believe, because it goes counter to what we know about how the universe works.

    Come back to reality, man. Believing fairy stories is for little kids, not rational adults.
  14. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Sep '07 23:451 edit
    Originally posted by EinsteinMind
    Matthew 5:17?

    "I have come not to abolish the Law nor the Prophets, but I have come to fulfill them"?

    He meant the sacrificial part of the law. Jesus would be the blood sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices. In OT times, men would have to sacrifice an animal in order to atone for their sins. However, animals' blood would not fulfill this, but rat ...[text shortened]... accept the New Covenant and "drink" of Jesus' blood.

    Those are the ones I can explain.
    If he had not come to abolish the Law, then he agreed with it.

    If you choose to interpret Biblical passages as meaning something other than what they actually say then there's not much for us to talk about.

    You must really NEED to believe that Christianity is all happiness and goodness. The culture was obviously quite preoccupied with blood sacrifice of innocent beings, but when Jesus refers to cannibalism it must be metaphorical, eh? Otherwise Christianity is a lot darker than most Christians want to believe...

    A moment of inspiration! Maybe we have a reasonable explanation for the disappearing of his body! He did tell his disciples to eat him...
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Sep '07 23:531 edit
    Here's a list of Biblical references to cannibalism:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/cannibalism.html

    Zechariah 11:9 seems to be God ordering people he doesn't like to be cannibals, for example.
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