1. Hmmm . . .
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    08 May '07 04:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The difference is that while we may enjoy the Iliad as a piece of literature, we do not hold it up as either an exemplary moral code, or as the source of all morality. The bible, because it makes pretensions on those areas, must be held to a higher standard.
    Imagine a scenario like the following—

    A few thousand years or so from now, someone discovers some lost and unremembered writings: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings—the last being identified as a trilogy. Based on these wonderful texts, a new religion arises, called RingTrue.* The author of these texts, someone called Tolkein, is recognized as a great prophet inspired by Eru, the One True god (also called Illuvatar). Liturgies and prayers to Eru (and sometimes to Manwe, although some of the BookRingers [see below] view this as heresy) develop, as well as various hermeneutical schools of thought for delving into what has come to be called The Book—meaning all the volumes taken as one; some Ringers include the newly-discovered “letters of Tolkein” in their canon; there is dispute about a fragment from a work called Morgoth’s Ring.

    Bumper stickers declaring “Frodo lives!” abound.

    There are disagreements, quarrels, internecine warfare, and schisms over the centuries as the religion grows—we won’t go into that long (future) history here.

    One of the main denominations that develops is the BookRingers, who believe that The Book is divine revelation, the inerrant source of all truth and the only true guide for daily living, divinely inspired by Eru in every word, and self-interpreting. Although most BookRingers acknowledge that there is poetry, metaphor, parables—even a bit of fable—embedded in the texts, they hold largely to a literal and historical reading: for example, of the creation story in Ainulindale. BookRingers call The Book “The Word of Eru”—and they mean it. Some think that the Music of the Ainur is held in the text itself, and that only a strict and true adherence to The Book allows the Music into one’s soul.

    Other Ringers hold more diverse views, such that the stories in the books are by-and-large mythological. They tend to apply such hermeneutical tools as literary criticism, and also rely on ancient commentaries that have been unearthed (such as The Road to Middle Earth: How J.R.R. Tolkein Created a New Mythology by someone called Tom Shippey—which book is viewed by all BookRingers as a deceit of Melkor, and is banned from their schools and temples). Among the Ringers are high-liturgy groups (called High-Ringers), such as the Orthodox-Catholic Ringbearers (OCR); and plain-liturgy denominations (called Low-Ringers), such as the Protestant-Hobbits; and a variety of Middle-Ringer groups in between. There are doctrinal divisions among them as well, such as whether or not all of the stuff in the books is mythological, and exactly what that means.

    There are constant arguments between Ringers and BookRingers, which no one ever wins. BookRingers accuse Ringers of pridefully putting reason above faith, diluting the message of The Word of Eru, and endangering the salvation of countless unwitting souls. Ringers accuse BookRingers of rigid, unreasonable thinking; degrading beautiful cultural mythology into childish fantasy by insisting on reading it literally; ignoring science (such as the Internal Quantacause Cosmological Theory); and holding unfounded beliefs (such as the actual existence of Elves). Ringers tend to mount more arguments about the texts; BookRingers argue almost exclusively from the texts. BookRingers call Ringers “liberals” and heretics and slaves to Melkor. Ringers call BookRingers “fundamentalists” and heretics and idolaters of the book. Both sides employ other, less kind, epithets as well.

    There are, of course, many non-Ringers too. A curious thing is that many non-Ringers seem to have accepted the BookRingers’ assertions about the (intended) facticity and historicity of the texts—as well as it’s divine source—which they find appallingly silly, and dismiss the whole thing as superstition. They sometimes dismiss the mythological Ringers also, charging that they are apologists who twist the texts to try to save the religion from clear reason. The mythologists find this tragic, and wonder why so many of these non-Ringers are able to read and enjoy other mythological works—such as The Star Genocides or the Elven River Sagas or the rather violent Chronicles of the Dwarf Kings—simply accepting them for what they are, but have difficulty with the Tolkein myths. Mythological Ringers mostly blame the BookRingers for this state of affairs.

    All three groups vigorously debate such questions as the Problem of Evil; body/spirit issues; empiricism, reason and revelation; and, of course, morality—perhaps especially morality, which seems strange because, although there are issues of profound and sharp disagreement, it is also the area where there seems to be the broadest general agreement when it comes to moral/ethical behavior. The endless battles seem to be mostly about theory: whether any one group is justified in behaving—well, as well as they generally do.

    Salvation, of course, is a big issue among the religious Ringers—and a hotly debated one. The question is who will enjoy the Second Music of Ainur, and who will be condemned to the abyss of Mount Doom. There is also the question of the exact nature of the abyss, and whether a fall into the abyss is eternal.

    BookRingers take the severest positions on these questions: (1) only those who accept Eru and follow the True Music, which can only be done by a diligent adherence to The Word of Eru, are saved; (2) some believe (a) that the abyss is a fiery torment, while others believe (b) that it is a dark nothingness in which the fallen are abysmally aware of their separation from the Music of Eru (some believe that the darkness is deadly silent, others that it resounds with discordant Melkorian noise); (3) the fall is eternal. There are a few “predestinationists” who believe that the identities of both the saved and the fallen were inexorably woven into the Original Music.

    Ringers have diverse opinions, including the strictly allegorical. Some Ringers (of the allegorical school) believe that hroa and the fea** both are subject to death, and that’s it. (Physicalist non-Ringers do not accept the notion of fea, except as an unfortunate name for certain bio-chemical activities of the hroa, and for them, as well, death is the end.) Others believe that both hroa and fea simply disperse and return to the fabric of the Music, with no continuation of an individual fea; others that the individual fea continues, but in some mysterious manner; still others that the individual fea will be reincarnated as a new melody in the universal symphony.

    BookRingers believe in the eternal life of the individual fea; some also believe in the resurrection of the hroa at the time of the Second Music.

    ______________________________

    * Some have thought it curious that the religion took it’s name from the Ring, and that the Ring became its most prominent symbol.

    ** Roughly, body and spirit.

    ______________________________

    All this came to me in a prophetic vision of Gandalf the White, but I don’t know—maybe it was just a dream... I’m not a BookRinger.

    Call me Gimli (the Tall)—
  2. Donationrwingett
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    08 May '07 05:07
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Imagine a scenario like the following—

    A few thousand years or so from now, someone discovers some lost and unremembered writings: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings—the last being identified as a trilogy. Based on these wonderful texts, a new religion arises, called [b]RingTrue
    .* The author of these texts ...[text shortened]... ut I don’t know—maybe it was just a dream... I’m not a BookRinger.

    Call me Gimli (the Tall)—[/b]
    Where does the Smith of Wooten Major and Farmer Giles of Ham fit into all this?
  3. Earth
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    08 May '07 05:08
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Imagine a scenario like the following—

    A few thousand years or so from now, someone discovers some lost and unremembered writings: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings—the last being identified as a trilogy. Based on these wonderful texts, a new religion arises, called [b]RingTrue
    .* The author of these texts ...[text shortened]... ut I don’t know—maybe it was just a dream... I’m not a BookRinger.

    Call me Gimli (the Tall)—[/b]
    You are very talented and your point is well taken.

    I believe you are waisting your talents here on this site. It might be better if you compiled some of your writings and publish them. I promise to buy the book.
  4. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    08 May '07 05:10
    Originally posted by Varqa


    I believe you are waisting your talents here on this site.
    Aren't we all?
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    08 May '07 05:13
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Where does the [b]Smith of Wooten Major and Farmer Giles of Ham fit into all this?[/b]
    Heresies! False religions!
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    08 May '07 05:16
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Aren't we all?
    In (some) good company, however.

    After all, I am now wading through Godel, Escher, Bach.
  7. Earth
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    08 May '07 05:17
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Aren't we all?
    Probably true, but the Chess games aren't too bad.
  8. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    08 May '07 05:19
    Originally posted by vistesd
    In (some) good company, however.

    After all, I am now wading through Godel, Escher, Bach.
    Nice. I will recursively pass credit for the recommendation along to royalchicken, who introduced me to it a couple years ago.
  9. Joined
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    08 May '07 05:21
    Originally posted by Varqa
    You are very talented and your point is well taken.

    I believe you are waisting your talents here on this site. It might be better if you compiled some of your writings and publish them. I promise to buy the book.
    Yes, he is an awsome writer. But they are very dense for me to get through 🙁 I'm not very patient, but I promised myself to read one post a day from him. I appreciate your posts. carry on....
  10. Joined
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    08 May '07 12:15
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Here we have an account where the Lord commands Joshua to destroy the city of Ai. Joshua follows these commands and slaughters 12,000 inhabitants of Ai:


    [i]Joshua 8:18 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Stretch out the spear that is in thy hand toward Ai; for I will give it into thine hand. And Joshua stretched out the spear that he had in his hand toward ...[text shortened]... le this account with the claim that God and the bible are the source of all morality?
    If God commanded it then thats ok then.....
  11. Donationrwingett
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    08 May '07 13:55
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    If God commanded it then thats ok then.....
    Is this a joke?

    So everything is permissible if god commands it? Murder, destruction, genocide, they're all OK as long as they've got god's stamp of approval? Every evil act can be turned into a righteous one by god's command?

    If this is so, it only serves to confirm my assertion that christianity is morally bankrupt and that the underpinnings of morality are completely independent from your religion and your god.
  12. Joined
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    08 May '07 14:06
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Is this a joke?

    So everything is permissible if god commands it? Murder, destruction, genocide, they're all OK as long as they've got god's stamp of approval? Every evil act can be turned into a righteous one by god's command?

    If this is so, it only serves to confirm my assertion that christianity is morally bankrupt and that the underpinnings of morality are completely independent from your religion and your god.
    He's your God too....... God gave life...only he can take it....Satan had to get God's permission to harm Job....

    What if The evil was caused by Satan.... the greatest trick he ever played was to make mankind believe he didn't exsist...and God gets the blame !!!
  13. Donationrwingett
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    08 May '07 14:13
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    He's your God too....... God gave life...only he can take it....Satan had to get God's permission to harm Job....

    What if The evil was caused by Satan.... the greatest trick he ever played was to make mankind believe he didn't exsist...and God gets the blame !!!
    By your own admission, God gave his permission for Satan to harm Job. So of course god gets the blame. Satan can only exist at all because god wills it. He also gets the blame for all the atrocities he directly commanded, like the slaughter of the 12,000 people of Ai. I am at a loss to find anything 'moral' about any of this.
  14. Cape Town
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    08 May '07 14:20
    Originally posted by rwingett
    So everything is permissible if god commands it? Murder, destruction, genocide, they're all OK as long as they've got god's stamp of approval? Every evil act can be turned into a righteous one by god's command?
    If you believe as many Christians do that God is the source of morals then yes, murder, destruction, genocide, they're all OK as long as they've got god's stamp of approval. They are morally correct. If you deny that then you believe that morals are not defined by God but are either relative or have a source that is even more fundamental than God. Can God sin?
  15. Joined
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    08 May '07 14:22
    Originally posted by rwingett
    By your own admission, God gave his permission for Satan to harm Job. So of course god gets the blame. Satan can only exist at all because god wills it. He also gets the blame for all the atrocities he directly commanded, like the slaughter of the 12,000 people of Ai. I am at a loss to find anything 'moral' about any of this.
    But the rewards for Job in the end were fantastic...so does God get the credit there?
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