Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dunno, if life has taught me nothing else, it has taught me never get into an argument with a lawyer, anyhow,
there is no such thing as the "divine element" except as conceived, propagated, and maintained by human beings. - this in itself is simply a conception and not at all well founded, for there are many Biblical and even scientific phenomen ...[text shortened]... ble ,and to dismiss them on the basis of nothing, is simply unsatisfactory and unreasonable.
There is nothing probative in the Bible -- nothing that can be established as fact in the same way as one can establish something as a fact contemporaneously. Everything in the Bible in order to be proved true must be assumed to be true, absent any standard of evidence applicable today in order to prove anything as a matter of fact.
You are making, in effect, the ontological argument, a well-worn and quite tired old religious argument for the existence of "God" or the "divine element."
The ontological argument examines the concept of God and argues that if we can conceive of God he must exist. The argument commits the bare assertion fallacy, as it offers no supportive premise other than qualities inherent to the unproven statement.
Thus, you are making a circular argument, because the premise relies on the conclusion, which in turn relies on the premise.
That which is inexplicable can only be explained by an assumed "divine element," which must, therefore, exist.
Nonsense. We cannot now explain how the theory of relativity and the theory of quantum mechanics -- in short, how the universe, we, the world, everything, really works. So, that must mean there is a "divine element," as only that could be fabricated in our minds to explain everything.
Has it occurred to you that not everything need have an explanation of which we can conceive right now, but may find out later on?
When did we learn about the existence of and how to use the electron, subatomic particles, atomic fission, fusion> What about how to make gasoline from oil, fuel from alcohol, from grass?
When did we learn how to convert sunlight into electricity?
When mankind was unable to explain factual or real phenomena, such as the rotation of the Earth around the Sun rather than vice versa, what stories did we make up to "explain" it all?
Are you made all that uncomfortable by not knowing everything or being able to "explain" it all?
I'm not. I expect I won't know a lot about what is actually happening as it happens. I also expect I will know what I can and the rest may or may not become clear over time. But in the meantime, I will avoid creating mythological reasons for things -- making up arguments out of "whole cloth," as it were.
When you want to get down to brass tacks -- let me know.
Otherwise, you are merely pissing into the wind, telling stories, and not "explaining" anything at all. You are simply making it up.
that isn't reasonable at all -- I know a little about the reasonable man standard. Under that legal standard, you do not appear reasonable, you appear to assume facts not in evidence and insist they are true.
BTW, I do not accept the existence of extraterristrials here on Earth, ancient astronauts, or other pseudo-scientific "explanations" for things we cannot apparently explain.
As it turns out, we can explain these things, but it takes time and study to do so.
If there is a place for faith in life, I would opt for having faith in my fellow man to lift himself out of the ignorance of circular arguments, the cowardice of religion, and the intellectual dishonesty of myth and into the light of reason, compassion, and awareness for its own sake.
Else, faith is merely a crutch by which we decide it is ok to remain intellectually and morally crippled, and thus retard our progress toward a better understanding and higher awareness of that which is the case.
It is that ignorance, that retardation, that makes slaves of many, justifies the many and various abuses of authority inherent in religion, such as the shameful treatment of women by Islamists in so many places, such as Afghanistan.
Greg Mortenson is right -- the cure for this kind of criminal mistreatment is the education of girls. Any faith that discriminates against women in any way has, per se, earned my contempt.