Originally posted by Big Mac
should governments be allowed to enforce capital punishment?
spiritually speaking, of course.
and, please provide grounds and warrants.

i am torn.
as a theist, which is a popular word on here, and as a xian theist to boot, i try to develop my social contracts and desires from the bible.

paul writes that the government is to carry the sword to defen ...[text shortened]... ave them do unto you.

prophets say that vengeance is god's. he will repay.

any thoughts?

Human-centered governments are established for the temporary safekeeping of freedom. As such, no government can be considered "Christian."

Without a sword, the human government will cease to exist. Amazingly, Christ will rule without one.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Here is something, I did not reference a book if you follow the post
I did reference evolutionary thought. So I take it than for you it is
just personal taste?
Kelly

This comes up again, and again, and again...

Why can't theists accept that morality doesn't require god? Why can't they accept, for example, that human beings are simply able to appreciate intrinsic value, and act accordingly?

Originally posted by dottewell
This comes up again, and again, and again...

Why can't theists accept that morality doesn't require god? Why can't they accept, for example, that human beings are simply able to appreciate intrinsic value, and act accordingly?

I don't care about atheist views of God and morality, I'm talking about
atheist views on killing, and the logic behind them! The fact that you
don't think God is required to have morals, I'm not debating, I agree
with you everyone has their own little sets of right and wrong in them,
I believe we all have them, not an issue with me. My question
remains unanswered, why? Is it just personal taste, because as I view
the atheist stand on death, it is just a natural part of life, so why keep
someone alive that has done very bad things where the law says kill
them?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't care about atheist views of God and morality, I'm talking about
atheist views on killing, and the logic behind them! The fact that you
don't think God is required to have morals, I'm not debating, I agree
with you everyone has their own little sets of right and wrong in them,
I believe we all have them, not an issue with me. My question
remains ...[text shortened]... why keep
someone alive that has done very bad things where the law says kill
them?
Kelly

As I said above, it might be a consequence of recognising that all life (even that of a killer) has intrinsic value, so taking life (except in certain extreme circumstances, such as self-defence) is wrong.

Originally posted by dottewell
As I said above, it might be a consequence of recognising that all life (even that of a killer) has intrinsic value, so taking life (except in certain extreme circumstances, such as self-defence) is wrong.

It might be? Well what is it? So life has an intrinsic value, valued by
whom? So if the state doesn't have this intrinsic value on the single
life it is okay, because the state doesn't value it, or the state should
value life because you do? Whose internal value system is important
here, if you have your own, and I have my own, and I say kill that
dirty SOB, because he raped and murdered a family and the family
pets, your internal value system should trump mine, because?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So if the state doesn't have this intrinsic value on the single
life it is okay, because the state doesn't value it, or the state should
value life because you do?

Eh? If life has intrinsic value, it has that value irrespective of whether I, or you, or the state, is able to see it.

It is, if you like, a fact rather than an opinion.

Originally posted by dottewell
Eh? If life has intrinsic value, it has that value irrespective of whether I, or you, or the state, is able to see it.

It is, if you like, a fact rather than an opinion.

Says who, just you, a group of people who agree with you? I mean
where do you get this stuff? Your personal tastes are facts not opinion?
Kelly

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
Find out. Also, how many people are executed that were later found to be innocent?

excellent point about the court system being very fallible.

if they were wrongfully accused, does that mean that they were murdered?
if so, does that mean that a whole other court could sentence to original court to the death penalty?

that would prevent the finger from flipping the switch so quickly perhaps.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Says who, just you, a group of people who agree with you? I mean
where do you get this stuff? Your personal tastes are facts not opinion?
Kelly

To me, Kelly, the value of human life is just a brute fact, which neither admits of, nor requires, further justification.

To demand more would be a bit like asking why your god chose to make love good, and murder bad.

Originally posted by dottewell
To me, Kelly, the value of human life is just a brute fact, which neither admits of, nor requires, further justification.

To demand more would be a bit like asking why your god chose to make love good, and murder bad.

As I said earlier, I'm trying to grasp this debate from an atheist
point of view. The only thing I have gotten is because you don't
like it, beyond that fact, you want your views pushed upon the
system we all live by. Is that the bottom line here?
Kelly

Originally posted by Big Mac
excellent point about the court system being very fallible.

if they were wrongfully accused, does that mean that they were murdered?
if so, does that mean that a whole other court could sentence to original court to the death penalty?

that would prevent the finger from flipping the switch so quickly perhaps.

We could also stop judging people incase we get it wrong and let
everyone just do what they want no matter the cost to others too?
Kelly

Originally posted by dottewell
To me, Kelly, the value of human life is just a brute fact, which neither admits of, nor requires, further justification.

To demand more would be a bit like asking why your god chose to make love good, and murder bad.

what should we do with the people that don't agree with that?
what should we do with the people that, for instance, want to murder, oh, i don't know, six million people because they're different?

would it have been better for hitler to have been killed before hand?
should he have been put to death afterwards?
should he have spent life in prison?
------------------------------

would a murderer not agree that at least some human life has no value?

should his life still be considered valuable?

Originally posted by KellyJay
We could also stop judging people incase we get it wrong and let
everyone just do what they want no matter the cost to others too?
Kelly

fine point, but you must admit that getting it wrong is an horrific possibility.

the bible says that only by the account of 2 or 3 witnesses should anyone be condemned.

does modern forensics count as 2 or 3 witnesses?
or should we only condemn to death if there actually are true witnesses?
all other evidence could lead to life in prison.

what do you think?

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I said earlier, I'm trying to grasp this debate from an atheist
point of view. The only thing I have gotten is because you don't
like it, beyond that fact, you want your views pushed upon the
system we all live by. Is that the bottom line here?
Kelly

That's not the point at all. The fact is there comes a point where explanation and justification ends. For you, that point is god. For you, it doesn't make sense to ask "But WHY did god make murder wrong?" For others, the end point is the value of human life. It doesn't make sense to ask "But WHY is human life valuable?"

In neither case is it a matter of individual opinion. From your point of view, that's just the way god is; from my point of view, that's just the way the universe is.

Originally posted by dottewell
That's not the point at all. The fact is there comes a point where explanation and justification ends. For you, that point is god. For you, it doesn't make sense to ask "But WHY did god make murder wrong?" For others, the end point is the value of human life. It doesn't make sense to ask "But WHY is human life valuable?"

In neither case is it a matter o ...[text shortened]... that's just the way god is; from my point of view, that's just the way the universe is.

fair enough...

but that also seems like a good question...

why is human life valuable from different religious and nonreligious positions?