Tolerance

Wow. So much bad information all in one place. I feel like I'm in a government office.

First - people don't choose to be gay anymore than they choose to be straight.

Second - there is no "gay lifestyle" anymore than there is a straight lifestyle. The variety in which gays live their lives is as different as it is for people that are straight.

While I understand the sister in this tale of "homo-shock and awe" having difficulty grasping the fact that her brother is gay, if she'd simply stop trying to judge and label everyone and everything in her life and just let people live their own lives and love them they way they are, then she wouldn't have an issue.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

🙂

Originally posted by lucifershammer
But, apparently, you've demolished my claim about the closest referent - so why should it hold here?

Further, IMO 'choice' is a better object for 'understand' than 'lifestyle' (What's there to understand about a lifestyle?)

This is basic English. Pronouns can only refer to nouns that are already in play.

It may be true that "In the end, siblings make a lifestyle choice, and Tom's was just odder than most" could conceivably express what she meant to say, but she didn't say that. And I won't presume to put words in her mouth and then analyze them - that's strawman reasoning.

She also had this construction available to generally refer to the matter of the choice: "I don't exactly understand that, but I respect it."

Given that she had these two options and chose neither, I am comfortable in finding that it is the lifestyle that she respects.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Would their lifestyle have no effect on how you dealt with them? Would you, for example, counsel them to change their ways.

It may seem obvious, but many people overlook the point that only a person who wants to change, can.

I'd give them my view on their lifestyle and counsel them when asked.

Originally posted by wib
Wow. So much bad information all in one place. I feel like I'm in a government office.

First - people don't choose to be gay anymore than they choose to be straight.

Second - there is no "gay lifestyle" anymore than there is a straight lifestyle. The variety in which gays live their lives is as different as it is for people that are straight.

...[text shortened]... they way they are, then she wouldn't have an issue.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

🙂

Methinks the case for homosexuality being genetic is far from conclusive.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

For more on the "myths" of homosexuality:

http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html

Originally posted by Halitose
Methinks the case for homosexuality being genetic is far from conclusive.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

For more on the "myths" of homosexuality:

http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html

I didn't visit any of those sites. Here's why -

Think about this Hal. Why on earth would someone CHOOSE to be gay? Think of the stigma that still exists in our society. How about the hate groups out there that have attacked gays just for being what they are. How about the entire Republican party which seems to be anti-gay and getting more anti-gay everyday. And what about the main religions in the US? Look at how they treat homosexuality. They condemn it and state that it's evil, gays go to hell, blah blah blah. We see plenty of that right here on this board.

Why would someone choose that life? It would be like me choosing to be a rabbit in a town full of wolves.

My brother is gay. And he has no idea why he's gay. But I can tell you this, he doesn't want to be straight. He is what he is and he's quite happy with that. That's how it should be.

Originally posted by Halitose
It may seem obvious, but many people overlook the point that only a person who wants to change, can.

I'd give them my view on their lifestyle and counsel them when asked.

Counsel them on what? Why would someone that isn't wrong need to be counseled on what you believe is right?

Originally posted by wib
Think about this Hal. Why on earth would someone CHOOSE to be gay?

For that matter, why on earth would someone choose to be a chain smoker, alcoholic or pedophile? Surely all of these are not 'born that way', yet they make the choice to live that way despite the negative social responses.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
For that matter, why on earth would someone choose to be a chain smoker, alcoholic or pedophile? Surely all of these are not 'born that way', yet they make the choice to live that way despite the negative social responses.

You just compared being gay to two addictive substances and one severe mental disorder.

ahm...pretty poor analogy. Try again.

TheSkipper

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
For that matter, why on earth would someone choose to be a chain smoker, alcoholic or pedophile? Surely all of these are not 'born that way', yet they make the choice to live that way despite the negative social responses.

LOL! Wow. Ok, so all gays need is treatment or prison time? Which is it?

Did you choose to be straight BigDogg?

People don't choose to be chain smokers, they choose to smoke.

People don't choose to be alcoholics, they choose to drink.

People don't choose to be pedophiles, the only choice they have is whether or not to act on those desires.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
You just compared being gay to two addictive substances and one severe mental disorder.

ahm...pretty poor analogy. Try again.

TheSkipper

Please try reading what I said again. I did not say anything about the substances themselves, but rather people who choose to (ab)use them.

The point is that it is a weak argument to claim that someone is born gay just because they choose to follow the lifestyle in spite of the negative reactions of those around them.

I see that you view a pedophile as a person with a severe mental disorder. Is it also your opinion that they are 'born that way'?

Originally posted by wib
I didn't visit any of those sites. Here's why -

Think about this Hal. Why on earth would someone CHOOSE to be gay? Think of the stigma that still exists in our society. How about the hate groups out there that have attacked gays just for being what they are. How about the entire Republican party which seems to be anti-gay and getting more anti-gay eve ...[text shortened]... nt to be straight. He is what he is and he's quite happy with that. That's how it should be.

My brother is gay too. He was not born this way. He made this decision later, because of some personal sexual experiences he encountered at a young age that I don't care to discuss here. He was excited about the sexual pleasures. More so than with woman. He had a girlfriend at the age of 14. Didn't last long.
I know of homosexuals who have been healed. It is very difficult. It is a choice. It is also "spiritual". Won't discuss this here either. There are too many who would not understand and it would not profit them. I will say, the spiritual part is demonic in nature.
Satan always counterfeits every good work of God. Even the victim himself lacks understanding about his/her emotions.
I love my brother. I pray for him. But I hate the act. I respect him, but will not quit praying for him, because in end this lifestyle will destroy him. It will rob him of a genuine man/woman relationship like God intended. It also robs him of peace of mind.
To date, as far as I know, he has had repeated bouts with hepatitis. He is nervous. There seems to be an uneasiness about him. He has ulcers.
My advise to all is to love these people, pray for them. Do not condemn them. But do not approve either. They are "bound." But not just anyone can help them. It requires a spiritual person, who himself is close to God. And in the end it is only Jesus Christ who can deliver them. I have seen it happen.

Originally posted by wib
LOL! Wow. Ok, so all gays need is treatment or prison time? Which is it?

Did you choose to be straight BigDogg?

People don't choose to be chain smokers, they choose to smoke.

People don't choose to be alcoholics, they choose to drink.

People don't choose to be pedophiles, the only choice they have is whether or not to act on those desires.

LOL! Wow. Ok, so all gays need is treatment or prison time? Which is it?

Did I say that? Nope, I thought not. Please focus responses on words that I've actually said. Thank you.

People in fact choose to be chain smokers. Those cigarettes don't magically float out of the pack and light themselves.

People choose to be alcholics by drinking excessively. Again, those beers don't just fly out of the package and pour themselves down the throat. Anyone who gets drunk knows damn well that they risk becoming addicted, and yet they continue doing it.

I am curious whether there is any scientific evidence for pedophiles being 'born that way'. If there is, it would mean that society cannot reasonably be expected to tolerate a behavior just because it is 'in the genes'.

Originally posted by Halitose
Methinks the case for homosexuality being genetic is far from conclusive.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

For more on the "myths" of homosexuality:

http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html

What a great link! Not only did I discover that some evidence of genetic link = no evidence of genetic link, but I also learned (from a supposed psychology think tank) that all sorts of major media groups including NPR, Newsweek, and the Wall Street Journal are out to destroy our nation.

Basically, the ariticle was an example of quote mining and deceptive spin on empirical analysis.

Wacko: Just under 50% of identical twins with one gay sibling, the other is gay as well? That's not evidence of a genetic link! That's evidence of environment!

Response: Well duh of course it is silly. Environment obviously plays some role. However given that fewer than 10% of the general population is gay, a measure of 50% is very strong evidence.

Wacko: Sorry, my ears were plugged. I didn't hear what you were saying.

I can add that place to my list of deceptive think tanks alongside CATO, AIG, and The Discovery Institute.

If you want to be honest with yourself, stop filtering your searches to take in only right-wing xian think tanks which comprise about .001% of the intellectual opinion in the field. Consider for instance this FAQ from the American Psychology Association (a mainstream, non-partisan, respected organization).

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#choice

They also have links to lots of papers so that you can actually read some of these quotes in context.

Originally posted by Halitose
Methinks the case for homosexuality being genetic is far from conclusive.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

For more on the "myths" of homosexuality:

http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html

The claim was that hoomosexuality is not a choice, not that it was genetic, so I'm not sure why you just posted those sites. Further, monozygotic twin studies have shown a genetic element. Note that "genetic element" is not to be construed as there being evidence for a "gay gene". Not every property influenced by genetics can be traced back to a single gene.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
[b]LOL! Wow. Ok, so all gays need is treatment or prison time? Which is it?

Did I say that? Nope, I thought not. Please focus responses on words that I've actually said. Thank you.

People in fact choose to be chain smokers. Those cigarettes don't magically float out of the pack and light themselves.

People choose to be alcholics by d ...[text shortened]... ociety cannot reasonably be expected to tolerate a behavior just because it is 'in the genes'.[/b]

Did you choose to be straight? I understand that when you engage in sexual activity, it is a choice, but did you choose to start finding women attractive, or did you just start finding women attractive?