1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 12:12
    When discussing time , timelines, free will , choice and potential futures I have come across what seems to me to be a pre-assumed unconscious vision of how timelines are and how they work.

    Whitehead idea seems to be that we are on a train track (timeline) laid out in front of us and that we have to follow that track. The only way for him that we can have real choices is if we have some points on the track and some multiple (potential) tracks down which we can journey instead of just one straight track.

    For him if God knows our track(timeline) then that track must be laid out "in advance" or "already" before us for us to journey down. He seems to assume that in order for God to know our future but for us to have real choices it requires multiple timelines to exist "in reality" and not "potentially". For him the existence of one timeline only logically leads to predetermination because he uses the track model.

    For me , I concieve of timelines more like an off road 4x4 and not a train track. This concept of choice and timelines means that the 4x4 is free to form it's own "track" behind it and as it goes thus making a track (timeline) in the sand through a desert. This model includes the potentiality for many different tracks to exist but also results in only one track being made in reality . The 4x4 does not need points or a track in front of it in order to take a turn here or there.

    Now , whitehead keeps telling me that if a being exists outside of time he would see a single timeline (track). I agree with this. For him that would mean that the track is set in front of us (predetermined) . For me however, I see a timeline as a record of events and choices , but it could also be a track in front of us , but I see no reason to assume this from the evidence.

    One thing strikes me here is that both the 4x4 idea and the traintrack idea would produce exactly the same results. Both would leave a record of a journey of a vehicle through time in which had taken a specific single path (both train and 4x4) --a single timeline. The track the 4x4 would make would be singular through the sand. The path the train had gone down would be singular also.

    So both 4x4 and train would produce the same results - a single timeline - how would we know simply from knowing that timeline whether the track was laid down in front of the train , or behind the 4x4.

    If we were a being outside of time we could watch the 4x4 5 minutes after it started out it's journey , but we could also see it 5 minutes from the end and all the points in between . It would look as if it was going down some kind of "track". But that track could be being laid down by the 4x4 itself because from our perspective it is both laying down the track it makes and following it at the same time.

    It's like looking at Hitler's life , it looks as if he is walking down a pre-set path like a train on a track. The problem is that if he had been a 4 x4 it would still look the same to us---- one track and one timeline. All we would see is a record of his free choices , which would look like a train track even if it wasn't.

    It's because of all this that I find it hard to understand that why whitehead and others claim their position to be self evident (I do not) because to me it's based on a pre-assumed idea that timelines are like train tracks. And a single timeline is no proof that it's a traintrack.
  2. Joined
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    21 Jun '08 12:20
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    When discussing time , timelines, free will , choice and potential futures I have come across what seems to me to be a pre-assumed unconscious vision of how timelines are and how they work.

    Whitehead idea seems to be that we are on a train track (timeline) laid out in front of us and that we have to follow that track. The only way for him that we ...[text shortened]... like train tracks. And a single timeline is no proof that it's a traintrack.
    I think thet this already laid of tracks is a overly complicated idea. If our timeline is set, then we don't have any free will, we have to follow what is already preset and prefixed, we cannot anything about it. It's only a illusion that we have a free will. I don't find this idea appealing, not at all.

    I don't think at all that the future exists before we enter it. Therefore we have our free will and are responsible of what we do in our lives.

    But whether it is one way or another - how do we find out? By experiments?
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 14:08
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I think thet this already laid of tracks is a overly complicated idea. If our timeline is set, then we don't have any free will, we have to follow what is already preset and prefixed, we cannot anything about it. It's only a illusion that we have a free will. I don't find this idea appealing, not at all.

    I don't think at all that the future exists befo ...[text shortened]... in our lives.

    But whether it is one way or another - how do we find out? By experiments?
    Some seem to think it's self evident but then they talk as if it should be self evident to all of us. If the evidence they are relying on is one single timeline then to me that evidence is inconclusive and no-one seems to be able to tell me why it is conclusive without it becoming a circular position.
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    21 Jun '08 14:28
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Some seem to think it's self evident but then they talk as if it should be self evident to all of us. If the evidence they are relying on is one single timeline then to me that evidence is inconclusive and no-one seems to be able to tell me why it is conclusive without it becoming a circular position.
    In religion people seems to believe that the future is already set. If the future is already set, then there is a posibility for prophecy and foretelling. Like the timeline alredy is there in the future for every individual, now living, and all in the future living too. I think that is depressing. What are there to find out then? How can I have a free will, when my actions in the future is already there? We step into a a definite future, no, I cannot think so.

    I believe in the free will, that makes life meaningfull. Therefore, we can build our own future as we want it to be. No In-Shallah here.

    And for free will to exist, the future cannot be decided before hand. The time come into existance at the right time, 60 seconds a minute. This is my belief.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 14:52
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    In religion people seems to believe that the future is already set. If the future is already set, then there is a posibility for prophecy and foretelling. Like the timeline alredy is there in the future for every individual, now living, and all in the future living too. I think that is depressing. What are there to find out then? How can I have a free wil ...[text shortened]... re hand. The time come into existance at the right time, 60 seconds a minute. This is my belief.
    Your future is decided by you at the point in time when you make that decision future past or present. God knows what decision you will make in your future and it can be any decision you like , but he is bound to know it anyway. He knows it eternally. You have already made it.


    Hitler could have done anything and you are always going to know it one way or the other.
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    21 Jun '08 15:18
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Your future is decided by you at the point in time when you make that decision future past or present. God knows what decision you will make in your future and it can be any decision you like , but he is bound to know it anyway. He knows it eternally. You have already made it.


    Hitler could have done anything and you are always going to know it one way or the other.
    And here we have different opinions.

    You say that "Your future is decided by you at the point in time when you make that decision future past or present."

    I say that the future is never decided. Because the future does not exist until we reach the future. We can allways change the future, but we will never know the outcome of it.

    The same goes for the past. We can never change the past. The past does not exist now, but we can remember the past because we can see the imprint of it in the present now.

    If god knows the future already, then we have no free will.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 16:31
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    And here we have different opinions.

    You say that "Your future is decided by you at the point in time when you make that decision future past or present."

    I say that the future is never decided. Because the future does not exist until we reach the future. We can allways change the future, but we will never know the outcome of it.

    The same goes f ...[text shortened]... print of it in the present now.

    If god knows the future already, then we have no free will.
    What is this thing you call "the" future? Surely you mean your future based on your own perspective in time. What you call "the" future is just as easily someone else's past.
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    21 Jun '08 16:42
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    What is this thing you call "the" future? Surely you mean your future based on your own perspective in time. What you call "the" future is just as easily someone else's past.
    The future, or the general future, is what is coming in time.
    The future, or the individual future, is only a part of the general one.

    My individual future is not only determined by my own actions, but also thae actions of my surroudning people. Like my boss, my teacher, my parents, but also people I don't know, like politicians, the grocery salesman, and in principle every one on the earth in various degree.

    But my future is never someone elses past. Because that implies that the future is already there, somewhere (or perhaps somewhen). I think we all liv in the same "now", waiting for the same future to come.

    Good question though. This make me think deeper of what I really think in the subject. The future will tell where this discussion will go.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 Jun '08 16:52
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The future, or the general future, is what is coming in time.
    The future, or the individual future, is only a part of the general one.

    My individual future is not only determined by my own actions, but also thae actions of my surroudning people. Like my boss, my teacher, my parents, but also people I don't know, like politicians, the grocery salesman, ...[text shortened]... er of what I really think in the subject. The future will tell where this discussion will go.
    Your future is not there for you but for someone else it is there as their past. It depends from which angle you look at it. If you are at the south face of everest you will see something I cannot see and is not there for me if I am at the north face. Who is right? Which perspective tells us the truth? Einstein told us that time is relative and that it's not some fixed constant like some big fat newtonian clock in the sky.
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    21 Jun '08 18:19
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Your future is not there for you but for someone else it is there as their past. It depends from which angle you look at it.
    Don't agree. We all live in the same timeframe. The 'future' does not exist for anyone, until we enter into it, then it is a 'now', a moment öater it is 'past'. My 'future' cannot ever be somebody elses 'past'.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    22 Jun '08 14:34
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Don't agree. We all live in the same timeframe. The 'future' does not exist for anyone, until we enter into it, then it is a 'now', a moment öater it is 'past'. My 'future' cannot ever be somebody elses 'past'.
    I understand you don't agree , but do you know why?
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    22 Jun '08 15:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I understand you don't agree , but do you know why?
    I don't actually understand why one persons future is anothers past. That I cannot grasp.
    You're right, I don't agree because I don't understand how you mean.
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    23 Jun '08 08:59
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    When discussing time , timelines, free will , choice and potential futures I have come across what seems to me to be a pre-assumed unconscious vision of how timelines are and how they work.

    Whitehead idea seems to be that we are on a train track (timeline) laid out in front of us and that we have to follow that track. The only way for him that we ...[text shortened]... like train tracks. And a single timeline is no proof that it's a traintrack.
    what makes you think the tracks were not laid by us as individuals? what if we laid the tracks already and this idea of "time" is actually just us watching these tracks we have laid?
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    23 Jun '08 09:00
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I don't actually understand why one persons future is anothers past. That I cannot grasp.
    You're right, I don't agree because I don't understand how you mean.
    i think he might be referring to timezone's, i'm not exactly sure.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    23 Jun '08 10:11
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I don't actually understand why one persons future is anothers past. That I cannot grasp.
    You're right, I don't agree because I don't understand how you mean.
    You are one person - 1945 is your past . For Hitler in 1939 then 1945 is his future. 1945 is his future and your past. You will of course say "Ah but Hitler is dead" but that's from your perspective in the time dimension . For him in 1939 you are not alive yet.
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