21 Jun '08 12:12>
When discussing time , timelines, free will , choice and potential futures I have come across what seems to me to be a pre-assumed unconscious vision of how timelines are and how they work.
Whitehead idea seems to be that we are on a train track (timeline) laid out in front of us and that we have to follow that track. The only way for him that we can have real choices is if we have some points on the track and some multiple (potential) tracks down which we can journey instead of just one straight track.
For him if God knows our track(timeline) then that track must be laid out "in advance" or "already" before us for us to journey down. He seems to assume that in order for God to know our future but for us to have real choices it requires multiple timelines to exist "in reality" and not "potentially". For him the existence of one timeline only logically leads to predetermination because he uses the track model.
For me , I concieve of timelines more like an off road 4x4 and not a train track. This concept of choice and timelines means that the 4x4 is free to form it's own "track" behind it and as it goes thus making a track (timeline) in the sand through a desert. This model includes the potentiality for many different tracks to exist but also results in only one track being made in reality . The 4x4 does not need points or a track in front of it in order to take a turn here or there.
Now , whitehead keeps telling me that if a being exists outside of time he would see a single timeline (track). I agree with this. For him that would mean that the track is set in front of us (predetermined) . For me however, I see a timeline as a record of events and choices , but it could also be a track in front of us , but I see no reason to assume this from the evidence.
One thing strikes me here is that both the 4x4 idea and the traintrack idea would produce exactly the same results. Both would leave a record of a journey of a vehicle through time in which had taken a specific single path (both train and 4x4) --a single timeline. The track the 4x4 would make would be singular through the sand. The path the train had gone down would be singular also.
So both 4x4 and train would produce the same results - a single timeline - how would we know simply from knowing that timeline whether the track was laid down in front of the train , or behind the 4x4.
If we were a being outside of time we could watch the 4x4 5 minutes after it started out it's journey , but we could also see it 5 minutes from the end and all the points in between . It would look as if it was going down some kind of "track". But that track could be being laid down by the 4x4 itself because from our perspective it is both laying down the track it makes and following it at the same time.
It's like looking at Hitler's life , it looks as if he is walking down a pre-set path like a train on a track. The problem is that if he had been a 4 x4 it would still look the same to us---- one track and one timeline. All we would see is a record of his free choices , which would look like a train track even if it wasn't.
It's because of all this that I find it hard to understand that why whitehead and others claim their position to be self evident (I do not) because to me it's based on a pre-assumed idea that timelines are like train tracks. And a single timeline is no proof that it's a traintrack.
Whitehead idea seems to be that we are on a train track (timeline) laid out in front of us and that we have to follow that track. The only way for him that we can have real choices is if we have some points on the track and some multiple (potential) tracks down which we can journey instead of just one straight track.
For him if God knows our track(timeline) then that track must be laid out "in advance" or "already" before us for us to journey down. He seems to assume that in order for God to know our future but for us to have real choices it requires multiple timelines to exist "in reality" and not "potentially". For him the existence of one timeline only logically leads to predetermination because he uses the track model.
For me , I concieve of timelines more like an off road 4x4 and not a train track. This concept of choice and timelines means that the 4x4 is free to form it's own "track" behind it and as it goes thus making a track (timeline) in the sand through a desert. This model includes the potentiality for many different tracks to exist but also results in only one track being made in reality . The 4x4 does not need points or a track in front of it in order to take a turn here or there.
Now , whitehead keeps telling me that if a being exists outside of time he would see a single timeline (track). I agree with this. For him that would mean that the track is set in front of us (predetermined) . For me however, I see a timeline as a record of events and choices , but it could also be a track in front of us , but I see no reason to assume this from the evidence.
One thing strikes me here is that both the 4x4 idea and the traintrack idea would produce exactly the same results. Both would leave a record of a journey of a vehicle through time in which had taken a specific single path (both train and 4x4) --a single timeline. The track the 4x4 would make would be singular through the sand. The path the train had gone down would be singular also.
So both 4x4 and train would produce the same results - a single timeline - how would we know simply from knowing that timeline whether the track was laid down in front of the train , or behind the 4x4.
If we were a being outside of time we could watch the 4x4 5 minutes after it started out it's journey , but we could also see it 5 minutes from the end and all the points in between . It would look as if it was going down some kind of "track". But that track could be being laid down by the 4x4 itself because from our perspective it is both laying down the track it makes and following it at the same time.
It's like looking at Hitler's life , it looks as if he is walking down a pre-set path like a train on a track. The problem is that if he had been a 4 x4 it would still look the same to us---- one track and one timeline. All we would see is a record of his free choices , which would look like a train track even if it wasn't.
It's because of all this that I find it hard to understand that why whitehead and others claim their position to be self evident (I do not) because to me it's based on a pre-assumed idea that timelines are like train tracks. And a single timeline is no proof that it's a traintrack.