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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If there is no God as in your philosophy how can anything be evil?
It is only a matter of herd mentality or convention. Nothing really objectively
OUGHT not to take place in any ultimate sense.
You want to say "No God exists" but you want to slip over to theism and steal some sense of what ought and ought not be in some final authoritative sense.
C.S. Lewis gave the analogy of a little child wanting to slap his father on the face. But he can't reach it without sitting on his lap.
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28 Dec 21
@sonship saidC.S. Lewis was full of bad analogies and attempts at logic.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
C.S. Lewis gave the analogy of a little child wanting to slap his father on the face. But he can't reach it without sitting on his lap.
28 Dec 21
@sonship saidlol @ 'herd mentality'
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If there is no God as in your philosophy how can anything be evil?
It is only a matter of herd mentality or convention. Nothing really objectively
OUGHT not to take place in any ultimate sense.
You want to say "No God exists" but you want to slip over to theism and steal some sense of what ought and ought not be in some final authoritative se ...[text shortened]... ttle child wanting to slap his father on the face. But he can't reach it without sitting on his lap.
Morals and ethics exist regardless of whether or not there is a god or gods. I'm not sure the term 'evil' is necessarily appropriate, however.
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28 Dec 21
@sonship saidMorality comes from humans. You have merely misappropriated it and attributed it to a God. In humans in began with basic cooperation that enabled us to survive and thrive as a species, and over time developed into something more complex. And yes, different cultures may have varying moralities. So what? We all are subject to the laws/conventions of our own societies. (Which more often than not overlap).
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If there is no God as in your philosophy how can anything be evil?
It is only a matter of herd mentality or convention. Nothing really objectively
OUGHT not to take place in any ultimate sense.
You want to say "No God exists" but you want to slip over to theism and steal some sense of what ought and ought not be in some final authoritative se ...[text shortened]... ttle child wanting to slap his father on the face. But he can't reach it without sitting on his lap.
You're welcome to terms like 'evil' or 'sin'. I just see humans, some of them with poorly formed or damaged morality.
28 Dec 21
@avalanchethecat saidInterestingly I don’t think the word “morality” even appears at all in most translations of the Bible, perhaps once or twice in some.
lol @ 'herd mentality'
Morals and ethics exist regardless of whether or not there is a god or gods. I'm not sure the term 'evil' is necessarily appropriate, however.
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28 Dec 21
@divegeester saidI think the 10 Commandments outlined the morality expected of God's chosen people and permeates throughout the rest of scripture.
Interestingly I don’t think the word “morality” even appears at all in most translations of the Bible, perhaps once or twice in some.
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28 Dec 21
Morality comes from humans. You have merely misappropriated it and attributed it to a God.
So you do not buy - "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . God created man in His own image; . . . "
Okay. I got that. Now what are the byproducts of such a belief?
Dignity - is an illusion in any ultimate sense.
Rights - are some flimsy shadowing illusion in any real sense.
Justice - is just somebody's preference as stable as their choice of decaf or caffeine
in their coffee.
What right did the nations have to sit the German Nazi's down at the Nuremberg trails and pass judgment on them. Those were Germany's morals! The Jews should be exterminated. What right have the winners of WW2 to say "This stuff you did was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG." ?
It was right for that society. "We make our own moral standard to live by here."
In humans in began with basic cooperation that enabled us to survive and thrive as a species, and over time developed into something more complex.
Cool. Hitler said the Jews and Gypsies are holding mankind back from greatest species benefit. The fittest should be allowed to survive. For the sake of the fittest the inferiors must be killed off. This is the "final solution."
Instead of Nuremberg "Crimes against humanity" and it penalties why not rewards for performing the best efforts to advance the species of human beings?
And yes, different cultures may have varying moralities. So what? We all are subject to the laws/conventions of our own societies. (Which more often than not overlap).
That's a problem because all the nations sitting in judgment of the Nazis did similar things. No one was there with the right to claim similar crimes had not been committed at sometime in their societies.
You're welcome to terms like 'evil' or 'sin'. I just see humans, some of them with poorly formed or damaged morality.
And who are you to define for us all "poorly formed or damaged morality" ?
No Ghost. I think there is a balancer of the moral scales of the universe ultimately
and finally and perfectly. I think what OUGHT to have been will be tended to with
perfect precision by one who knows all the facts and from whom nothing escapes evaluation.
What persuades me is a kind of resume of His actions over thousands of years recorded. Like record showing God's involvement in history not just for a day or two, but over millennia as a track record. And not written by one author in one life time as in say the Quran. Rather it was written by forty diverse kinds of authors over many centuries.
The track record of God in the Bible persuades me that a last judgment is conceivable with such a One. And also a plan of justification, reconciliation is also in this One's purview.
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28 Dec 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, let’s be clear.
Let's be clear on this. Greek myths are full of similar incidents with the gods enacting unnecessarily cruel retributions and punishments on mankind. (Invariably involving wild animals). Is your God not better than theirs? Is he cut from the same cloth?
Apparently so.
That two female bears were sent by God to break up what had become an unruly and threatening mob targeting one of His prophets and that the two female bears injured some members of the mob - who clearly did not run away given the number of young adults (42) mauled - is an interpretation you cannot dispute.
If the young adults fled from the two bears, how did the bears manage to maul 42 of them?
Clearly the young adults were not intimidated by the two female bears, so the bears dished out justice, Grizzly style.
🐻 🐻 👍👍
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28 Dec 21
@sonship saidIf you believe any of that I genuinely pity you. Is that really the low opinion you have of humanity?
Okay. I got that. Now what are the byproducts of such a belief?
Dignity - is an illusion in any ultimate sense.
Rights - are some flimsy shadowing illusion in any real sense.
Justice - is just somebody's preference as stable as their choice of decaf or caffeine
in their coffee.
I live a life without God. Do you think I live a life where I don't value dignity, human rights or justice? Not only do I find that profoundly naïve I also find it highly offensive.
You sad little man.
28 Dec 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHow could anyone have a bad or damaged morality if we alone are the source?
Morality comes from humans. You have merely misappropriated it and attributed it to a God. In humans in began with basic cooperation that enabled us to survive and thrive as a species, and over time developed into something more complex. And yes, different cultures may have varying moralities. So what? We all are subject to the laws/conventions of our own societies. ( ...[text shortened]... terms like 'evil' or 'sin'. I just see humans, some of them with poorly formed or damaged morality.
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28 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidFor further clarity, you have brought in the female nature of the bears to mitigate the mauling of the youths?!
Yes, let’s be clear.
That two female bears were sent by God to break up what had become an unruly and threatening mob targeting one of His prophets and that the two female bears injured some members of the mob - who clearly did not run away given the number of young adults (42) mauled - is an interpretation you cannot dispute.
If the young adults fled from the two bears, ...[text shortened]... e not intimidated by the two female bears, so the bears dished out justice, Grizzly style.
🐻 🐻 👍👍
"Oh, the bears were female. Why didn't you say so before? Of course an omniscient and omnibenevolent deity would send 'female' bears to maul youths."
And why have you downgraded the attack to 'injured some members?' Were you there? Don't you think a mauling by bears would probably result in fatalities? Those weren't badgers God sent.
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28 Dec 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI said “injured” is an interpretation you cannot dispute. Mauling does not mean killing.
For further clarity, you have brought in the female nature of the bears to mitigate the mauling of the youths?!
"Oh, the bears were female. Why didn't you say so before? Of course an omniscient and omnibenevolent deity would send 'female' bears to maul youths."
And why have you downgraded the attack to 'injured some members?' Were you there? Don't you think a mauling by bears would probably result in fatalities? Those weren't badgers God sent.
And you’ve got nothing on the other points?
If the young adults ran away, how did the bears manage to maul 42 of them?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think it outlines behavioural expectations, not morality. Morality isn’t mentioned in the Bible; God talks about righteousness, not morality.
I think the 10 Commandments outlined the morality expected of God's chosen people and permeates throughout the rest of scripture.
The reason I think this is because the Israelites were at that time a desperately immoral (if you like) group who needed clear simple to understand and unambiguous direction on what was unacceptable thoughts and behaviours, i.e. obedience to the commandments you mention.
Also morality seems to me is a complex function of the natural mind. Righteousness in Bible is a spiritual concept described largely in the OT as as belief expressed as obedience. A class example would be Abraham “who believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness”.
In short my view, and I accept that it is just my view, is that morality is a human, temporal and somewhat transient concept, whereas righteousness is a spiritual, eternal and fixed concept.