True belief in god (or Christ)

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I still don't see how you've explained that God condmening people to death by stoning is in your view righteous.

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I still don't see how you've explained that God condmening people to death by stoning is in your view righteous.
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At this stage in my Christian development, I cannot explain each and every instance of the death by God of a person in the Bible.

There are some instances which I think I can explain. There use to be none. But as I grow in the spiritual life, I think instances which were a puzzle to me previously, I can ascertain better.

With growth and experience, deeper insight into the word of God grows.

So I will concede to you that there are some penalties of death which at this time I don't have answers that satisfy me.

Having admitted that, I would add that because of the track record of seeing more and more things from God's point of view, I believe that I am headed towards fuller understanding. I suspect complete understanding will come someday.

The way I see it there are two attitudes I could adopt. Since I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired truth from God, there are two major views I could take.

1.) I could assume that the creature MAN is morally superior to his Creator God. I could assume that somehow God produced out from Himself a creature which surpasses Himself in ethics.

How the effect could be greater then the cause, I don't know. But if I assume that God gave to us something that He Himself did not have, then I would assume that God needs to learn from us.

We, His creatures, have to educate Him and correct His deficiencies with our superior morality.

This philosophy of the SUPERIOR creature to his CREATOR seems unrealistic to me.

2.) I can assume that because of God the Creator's far superior moral character, there are occasionally acts on His part that I do not understand. At least until I partake of Him more, deepen fellowship with Him more, and see things from His viewpoint more.

This latter concept seems the more reasonable to me.

I will just have to, in the mean time, trust that though I do not always understand His ways, He is superior and worthy of all belief and obedience (through His grace of course).

And though you are probably tired of hearing it, I'd repeat it. Of all the people to walk this earth, I think the one most qualified to level a serious criticism against the morality of God in the Old Testament, would be Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't see Jesus of Nazareth lambasting Yahweh of the Old Testament for anything, including Sodom and Gamorrah, the Amalikies, Jericho, Philistines, etc.

He says that the world has not known His righteous Father. But He has known this "righteous Father".

I can't ignore that.

Originally posted by jaywill
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I still don't see how you've explained that God condmening people to death by stoning is in your view righteous.
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At this stage in my Christian development, I cannot explain each and every instance of the death by God of a person in the Bible.

There are some instances ...[text shortened]... ather[/b]. But He has known this "righteous Father".

I can't ignore that.[/b]

Apologies for the late reply.

I find this statement interesting -

So I will concede to you that there are some penalties of death which at this time I don't have answers that satisfy me.

I'm thinking, and please correct me if i'm wrong, that you find some of the death penalties contained in the OT 'unpalatable'? I would hope that most compassionate human beings on this planet would find 'all' the death penalties in the OT, and all death penalties full-stop, abhorrent.

You seem to be admitting that you don't actually think all of Gods actions are righteous, but because Jesus never criticised or condemned God for the sentencing of people to death, and his explicit calling of God his 'righteous father' you believe him to be righteous.

Am i barking up the right tree?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Apologies for the late reply.

I find this statement interesting -

So I will concede to you that there are [b] some penalties of death which at this time I don't have answers that satisfy me.

I'm thinking, and please correct me if i'm wrong, that you find some of the death penalties contained in the OT 'unpalatable'? I would hope tha ous father' you believe him to be righteous.

Am i barking up the right tree?[/b]

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Apologies for the late reply.
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Understood. However, bear with me also if my continuation of the exchange is not so smooth and totally consistent, since I haven't thought about it in a while.

Deal ?

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I find this statement interesting -

So I will concede to you that there are some penalties of death which at this time I don't have answers that satisfy me.

I'm thinking, and please correct me if i'm wrong, that you find some of the death penalties contained in the OT 'unpalatable'? I would hope that most compassionate human beings on this planet would find 'all' the death penalties in the OT, and all death penalties full-stop, abhorrent.
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I do not go this far. I do not go so far as to see all death penalties executed by God as "abhorrent".

As I read through the laws in Exodus and Leviticus it seems some I understand and some I do not.

Some seem very considerate to the slave, the woman, the offender, the guilty party, the offended party, the foreigner, etc. etc. and some others I do not understand well.

You have to know that I enjoy not being 100% certain that I understand everything in God's word. The fact that I have to put some things on the "back burner" for hopeful latter clarity, is a joy to me. It is not grevious. It makes me realize that I still am growing spiritually.

I think it is a mistake to wait until you think you comprehend every single line in the 66 books of the Bible before you open your heart up to God for fellowship with Him.

Anyway, I do not share your view that ANY death penalty ANYWHERE in the Old Testament is "abhorrent".


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You seem to be admitting that you don't actually think all of Gods actions are righteous, but because Jesus never criticised or condemned God for the sentencing of people to death, and his explicit calling of God his 'righteous father' you believe him to be righteous.
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I do not doubt God's righteousness. I admit that my mind is not totally and 100% in conformity with His mind.

My behavior often also suggests the same.

This is what I suspect will one day happen - one day God will say to some of us:

"In many instances you thought you were right. But you were actually wrong and I (God) was right.

But there are SOME instances in which I was right - but your were also right."

There may be some instances in which God will say to Proper Knob "I was right. but you were right too."

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Am i barking up the right tree?
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I am not afraid to question God. I am not afraid to argue with God in prayer. I am not afraid to tell my heavenly Father that I do not understand why He is doing a certain thing the way He is doing it.

I have a problem with American slavery. I have a problem with God allowing the slaugher of 6 million Jews under Hitler.

One Jewish thinker said "If Aschwitz exists then God does not exist."

There is a good play called "God on Trial" in which some Jews in a death camp form a court and attempt to put the God of Israel on trial. There are defenses and accusations. Everybody gets some real good lines in in that play. It is very well written.

So, I have perplexity at times on God's providential allowance or even His active will. But my focus ALWAYS comes back to Jesus Christ. And that is probably what keeps me in the faith.

I am not sure I answer this well.

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You seem to be admitting that you don't actually think all of Gods actions are righteous, but because Jesus never criticised or condemned God for the sentencing of people to death, and his explicit calling of God his 'righteous father' you believe him to be righteous.
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The Bible says that righteousness is the foundation of God's throne. Its there, I just don't want to look it up right now.

This seems to be a concept that if God were to be unrighteous His ground to be ruler of the universe would be shaken.

Now think about this - an incompetent God as to moral good. Does it make sense ?

What higher umpire are you going to appeal to ? That higher one must be God. Then that one may make a mistake. Then you have to appeal to a higher Judge.'

Do you have an infinite regress of a more right and more right and more right higher Authority ? Where does the moral buck STOP ?

I think instead of an imperfect God who somehow created humans MORE righteous then Himself who can sit Him down and instruct Him on morality, I think it is more likely that sometimes we just fail to grasp His righteousness.

Think about it. Does it make sense that there is NO final ultimate One who is eternally righteous ?