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@fmf saidA fact is absolute. Nothing can change a fact. A fact is not a subjective opinion. A fact is we can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. That is a fact.
I believe it is a fact that death is the end. You believe it is a fact that there is or can be everlasting life. All we are doing is swapping subjective perspectives. Neither of us can know for sure that the other is wrong. It's a matter of speculation.
@dj2becker saidAnd yet people disagree about what the facts are. Is it your personal opinion that it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead? Is it your personal opinion that it is a fact that your "revealed" religion is true and that other religions are false?
A fact is absolute. Nothing can change a fact. A fact is not a subjective opinion. A fact is we can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. That is a fact.
@FMF
Before you get to any of that, truth is either utimately absolute or relative.
Ie. If Jesus didn't rise, then that is true truth.
The issue here is whether there is such a thing as truth being absolute.
We can hardly LIVE as though it is not.
@dj2becker saidIt should not be a surprise that some suppress the truth! If someone doesn't want to see it or hear the truth, they will find some rationale to suppress the truth, and any excuse will do.
A fact is absolute. Nothing can change a fact. A fact is not a subjective opinion. A fact is we can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. That is a fact.
Romans 1
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
@kellyjay saidIt is your prerogative, of course, to keep referring to your personal opinions regarding supernatural matters as "the truth".
It should not be a surprise that some suppress the truth! If someone doesn't want to see it or hear the truth, they will find some rationale to suppress the truth, and any excuse will do.
However, not having the same beliefs as you does not mean that I am "suppressing the truth". If we both believed the same thing and you told people about it while I tried to keep it secret, THEN you could say I was "suppressing the truth".
But, you seem to be using "suppressing the truth" as a synonym for "having different beliefs", and that makes these assertions of yours completely subjective.
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@fmf saidIf I believe Jesus was the Son of God and you believe He wasn’t, one of us is believing an objective fact. There’s no two ways about it. Either He was or He wasn’t. Simple logic.
Our speculations ~ and resulting opinions ~ about the "truth" regarding supernatural matters are subjective and not objective.
@dj2becker saidBut, as neither of us can establish, as an objective, empirically demonstrable fact [in the same way as we can with, say, gravity] that "Jesus was the Son of God", all you and I can do is make subjective statements about the matter and offer personal opinions and information about our beliefs.
If I believe Jesus was the Son of God and you believe He wasn’t, one of us is believing an objective fact. There’s no two ways about it. Either He was or He wasn’t. Simple logic.
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@fmf saidNo matter how you try to sugarcoat it with the terms ‘subjective’ and ‘personal opinion’, ultimately one of us is going to be right in our estimation and the other is going to be wrong. Either Jesus was the Son of God or He wasn’t. There is no other option.
But, as neither of us can establish, as an objective, empirically demonstrable fact [in the same way as we can with, say, gravity] that "Jesus was the Son of God", all you and I can do is make subjective statements about the matter and offer personal opinions and information about our beliefs.
@dj2becker saidYou are entitled to speculate about it and whatever opinion you express will be subjective and not objective.
Either Jesus was the Son of God or He wasn’t.
@dj2becker saidYour opinions on this matter NOW are subjective regardless of whatever "turns out to be either true or false".
Anyone’s opinions on this matter will turn out to be either true or false, based upon the existence of an objective absolute reality.