Truth- Absolute or Relative?

@dj2becker said
A fact is absolute. Nothing can change a fact. A fact is not a subjective opinion. A fact is we can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. That is a fact.

Do you believe it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead?

Do you believe it is a fact that your "revealed" religion is true and that other religions are false?

@fmf said
Your opinions on this matter NOW are subjective regardless of whatever "turns out to be either true or false".

If it turns out to be true it means it wasn’t merely an opinion but also a fact. Which means NOW it would be objectively true regardless of what anyone may believe it. Which is exactly what an objective truth is. It doesn’t change with time. If it turns out to be true later it means it is true NOW as well.

@fmf said
Do you believe it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead?

Do you believe it is a fact that your "revealed" religion is true and that other religions are false?

I believe it is either a fact or it isn’t. But whatever we find out to be true later will also be true now.

@dj2becker said
If it turns out to be true it means it wasn’t merely an opinion but also a fact. Which means NOW it would be objectively true regardless of what anyone may believe it. Which is exactly what an objective truth is. It doesn’t change with time. If it turns out to be true later it means it is true NOW.

If we believe, if we have an opinion, these are always something internal for us, but what it is we are focused on will either be true or not. Nothing about us or many of us will alter what is; we can be wrong about something right, or right about something wrong. The thing is, reality does not change because of us; it is what it is. If something is true, it will be true and remain so, no matter what everyone thinks about it.

@dj2becker said
If it turns out to be true it means it wasn’t merely an opinion but also a fact.

Your current speculation about what it might "turn out to be" is entirely within the realm of subjectivity.

@dj2becker said
Which means NOW it would be objectively true regardless of what anyone may believe it. Which is exactly what an objective truth is.

You are not able to express anything other than subjective opinions about supernatural things.

@dj2becker said
I believe it is either a fact or it isn’t. But whatever we find out to be true later will also be true now.

Regardless of "whatever we find out to be true later", any personal opinions you express about supernatural things now are not objective.

@kellyjay said

If we believe, if we have an opinion, these are always something internal for us, but what it is we are focused on will either be true or not. Nothing about us or many of us will alter what is; we can be wrong about something right, or right about something wrong. The thing is, reality does not change because of us; it is what it is. If something is true, it will be true and remain so, no matter what everyone thinks about it.

Your constant assertion that the things you believe about supernatural matters are "true" is an assertion rooted in your subjectivity.

@kellyjay said
If something is true, it will be true and remain so, no matter what everyone thinks about it.

If the things you believe are not true, they will be not true no matter what you think about them. Until this is resolved - and I don't think it ever will be - then all either of us can do is share our subjective opinion about supernatural causality - and divine will etc. - as we see it.

@dj2becker said
I believe it is either a fact or it isn’t. But whatever we find out to be true later will also be true now.

FMF: Do you believe it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead?

dj2becker: I believe it is either a fact or it isn’t.

So you concede that you don't know whether "Jesus rose from the dead" is a fact or not?

Do you, then, concede that it may well not be a fact?

@fmf said
FMF: Do you believe it is a fact that Jesus rose from the dead?

dj2becker: I believe it is either a fact or it isn’t.

So you concede that you don't know whether "Jesus rose from the dead" is a fact or not?

Do you, then, concede that it may well not be a fact?

I believe there is a lot more evidence that suggests it is a fact than not.

In terms of absolute truth, if it isn’t a fact it would be absolutely true that he didn’t rise from the dead. There is no arguing the existence of absolute truth. If He didn’t rise from the dead it wouldn’t even be relatively true if people believed that He did.

@fmf said
Regardless of "whatever we find out to be true later", any personal opinions you express about supernatural things now are not objective.

Do you believe it’s impossible for a judge to be objective in a court of law when presented with evidence?

@dj2becker said
Do you believe it’s impossible for a judge to be objective in a court of law when presented with evidence?

I believe that all you and I are able to do when we are takling about supernatural things is to share our non-objective personal opinions. Any analogy about a judge and evidence in "a court of law" aimed at characterizing speculation about divine beings as "objective" is a dud.

@dj2becker said
I believe there is a lot more evidence that suggests it is a fact than not.

So, just to be clear, you concede that the claim "Jesus rose from the dead" may well not be a fact, right?

@dj2becker said
In terms of absolute truth, if it isn’t a fact it would be absolutely true that he didn’t rise from the dead.

Well, as neither of us know whether or not he rose from the dead, all we have are our personal opinions about it.