Originally posted by sonshipBut I am not a Christian, sonship.
On the other hand, if what I said is true, it is an indication that underneath the active intellect there is something in man which has an intuitive sense of the indecency of transgressing the commandment -
[quote] [b] "You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain, for Jehovah will not hold guiltless him who takes His name in vain" (Exodus 20 ...[text shortened]... mony" to you.
Time will tell.
Now back to my subject - [b]Two Views of Human Government[/b]
FMF: [Goodness me is] a turn of phrase, sonship. I also use the expressions "the devil's in the details" and "angels dancing on the head of a pin", but it doesn't meant I have any reason to believe the devil or angels exist.Are your references to "intellect" and "indecency" and "transgressing" - in the wake of me using the expression 'Goodness me', in your view, part of your ministry? Is it an example of 'good works'?
Originally posted by sonship
On the other hand, if what I said is true, it is an indication that underneath the active intellect there is something in man which has an intuitive sense of the indecency of transgressing the commandment -
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Originally posted by FMFSo you're saying that my ministry is solely dedicated to insulting you personally ?
Are your references to "intellect" and "indecency" and "transgressing" - in the wake of me using the expression 'Goodness me', in your view, part of your ministry? Is it an example of 'good works'?
You're saying the only priority I have is making FMF uncomfortable ?
The cornerstone of the godly person's attitude towards government can arguably be found in Romans 13.
The intriguing thing is that when Paul wrote that chapter Ceasar Nero was emperor of Rome. It is hard to believe.
Read Romans 13 at least the first 10 verses. it is astounding that Paul could write that way concerning the government that eventually be the cause of his losing his head.
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Here it is.
" Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God. " (v1)
This requires another Life. This requires another Person living in our spirit - the Lord Jesus Christ.
"So then he who resists the authority opposes God's ordination, and those who oppose will receive judgment to themselves." (v.2)
This has to be taken in the whole context of the Bible. Daniel continued to pray when the king had made a decree that no prayer should be made to anyone besides the king for a time.
For his disobedience (but obedient consecration to God) he was thrown into the lion's den. The lions however, seemed by God to become vegetarians that night. God preserved him.
Other instances can be found. Please notice that when God's saints in the Bible were disobedient to government authorities they were still respectful and submissive in attitude.
Originally posted by sonshipI suppose what I am asking you is, am I getting (in your view) a little glimpse of the spirit of Jesus working through you in your attempted reprimand about my use of the expression "goodness me"?
So you're saying that my ministry is solely dedicated to insulting you personally ?
You're saying the only priority I have is making FMF uncomfortable ?
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" For the rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do what is good, and you will have praise from him [or her guys] ;
For he [/b] [or she guys] is a servant of God ... "
The positions of government, on general principle, are the ordination of God.
The anarchy of total libertarian freedom was tried in the world.
It had to be concluded with the flood of Noah.
"For he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, fear,; he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to him who practices evil." (v.4)
Remember, Nero was the emperor of Rome when Paul wrote this letter to the Christians in Rome.
Recall in Exodus that the Hebrew midwives did not carry out Pharoah's orders to participate in genocide against the Hebrews. They did not and made excuses when Pharoah schemed how to eradicate the Israelite boys.
"And he [Pharaoh] said, When you act as midwives and see them on the birth-stool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter then she shall live.
But the Hebrew midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them but let the male children live." (Exo. 1:16,17)
God blessed them for their resistance to the government sponsored genocide. But not a hint of insubordination, clamor or revolt was in their attitude. They fear God though.
The old folks once told me "The only way to get the fear of man out of you is to get the fear of God into you."
These matters I have to take into account when reading a tough chapter like Romans 13.
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Originally posted by sonshipThe cornerstone of the godly person's attitude towards government can arguably be found in Romans 13
The intriguing thing is that when Paul wrote that chapter Ceasar Nero was emperor of Rome. It is hard to believe.
Read Romans 13 at least the first 10 verses. it is astounding that Paul could write that way concerning the government that eventually be the cause of his losing his head.
You should perhaps read "Creating Christ" by James S. Valliant and C. W. Fahy;
Originally posted by FMFExcuse me. I am preaching now. Can't you see ?
I suppose what I am asking you is, am I getting (in your view) a little glimpse of the spirit of Jesus working through you in your attempted reprimand about my use of the expression "goodness me"?
Now, instances of disobedience of God's people to government without insubordination in attitude:
Hebrew midwives
Moses and Aaron
Daniel
Daniel's three companions - Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah
Amos the prophet commanded not to prophesy in the northern kingdom.
Peter and John
1) God ordains human government and its authority is to be respected
2.) God knows that sometimes obedience to God and obedience to government will run in conflict. It is in the attitude that the difference should be between the Christian and the worldly people.
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Continuing with Romans 13
" Therefore it is necessary to be subject , not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. (v.5)
Sometimes then the Christian conscience will not allow him or her to go along with some government mandate. This usually a personal matter of conscience.
One of the discouraged works of the flesh is clamor. Clamor has to do with protest and making insisting demands.
Here we see Paul specify that clamor is not becomming of a Christian.
But first the definition according to an online dictionary:
[ Clamor ] noun
1.
a loud uproar, as from a crowd of people:
the clamor of the crowd at the gates.
2.
a vehement expression of desire or dissatisfaction:
the clamor of the proponents of the law.
3.
popular outcry:
The senators could not ignore the clamor against higher taxation.
4.
any loud and continued noise:
Or
Definition of clamor
1
a : noisy shouting a clamor of children at play
b : a loud continuous noise the clamor of the waterfall
2
: insistent public expression (as of support or protest) the current clamor about what is wrong with our schools
See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clamor
See http://www.dictionary.com/browse/clamor
[b] " Let all bitterness and anger and wrath and CLAMOR and evil speaking be removed from you, with all malice." (Eph. 4:31)
Witness Lee helps here in The Conclusion of the New Testament -
If we are filled with grace, then in place of bitterness, wrath, anger, and clamor, we shall have kindness, patience, mercy, forgiveness, and grace. These qualities come not from self-effort but from Christ as our enjoyment. When Christ is our enjoyment, we have no appetite for bitterness, wrath, anger, or clamor. Instead, we desire to have kindness, patience, endurance, gentleness, mercy, love, and various other virtues and qualities. What a difference it makes in our daily living when we are happy and satisfied through the enjoyment of God in Christ as grace!
For further reading see -
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=17AADFC6C9
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Originally posted by sonshipThe Roman authorities would certainly have endorsed this bit of teaching by Paul.
One of the discouraged works of the flesh is clamor. Clamor has to do with protest and making insisting demands.
Here we see Paul specify that clamor is not becomming of a Christian.
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-Removed-Excuse me Mr. Innocent.
You wrote this nasty invective about me. [My bolding]
More blather.
You claim that the trinity doctrine is "taught" in the Bible, it isn't. "Trinity" "triune" "3 people in one God" are words and phrases that are not even mentioned in the BIble, let alone "taught".
And I recall you elsewhere referred to my writing in derogatory terms.
So now on one hand you say give credit to the spiritual giants on whose shoulders you stand. But on the other hand you say I write "blather."
And it is possible that I recall you using the phrase "mumbo jumbo" for my writing.