1. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 13:371 edit
    In the book of Daniel there are two views of all human government. I would submit that there is the view from the standpoint of man on earth. And there is the viewpoint from the sight of God in heaven.

    One view is from "below" and the other is from "above".

    The viewpoint from man's perspective is seen in the story of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel chapter two.

    the viewpoint from God's perspective is mainly in Daniel's dream in Daniel chapter seven.
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    04 Apr '17 13:59
    I encourage readers to read the whole story of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great image. He could not remember the dream and would have all the wise men in Babylon killed if they could not recall it to him and interpret it.

    Daniel, a captive from Israel, and his three companions were an exception. His three spiritual companions were (Hebrew names of) Hananiah, Mishel, and, Azariah.
    Many know them by the names given to them by their captures, the Babylonians - Shadrach, Mesgack; and Abed-nego.

    They prayed and fasted and through Daniel were able to recall and interpret the dream to king Nebuchadnezzar.

    Here are the details of viewpoint from below, the view from the king's dream as Daniel recounted and interpreted it.

    Daniel 2:31-45

    "You, O king, were watching, and there was a single great image. This image, large and its brightness surpassing, stood opposite you; and its appearance was frightful.

    Concerning this image, its head was of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its abdomen and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

    You were watching until a stone was cut out without hands, and its struck the image at its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed all at once, and they became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found.

    And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."


    From the standpoint of fallen people on earth human government are generally a thing of dignity and nobility - even mankind at his best.

    This image has been interpreted as standing for representative empires in human history - the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire.
    The two toes of clay and iron mixed have been seen by some to represent democracies of the latter times just before the second coming of Christ.

    My point here is that generally humans regard human government as this image of man.

    The same four governments of history are envisioned again in Daniel 7. But there they are seen as four terrible monsters.

    Cont. below.
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    04 Apr '17 14:181 edit
    In the four major sections of the great image of Nebuchadrezzar's dream four representative kingdoms stand for the aggregate of all the world's governments. The four are the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire.

    The same four representative governments that Nebachadreszzar saw as a great shinning noble image, Daniel sees represented as four monstrous beasts out of the sea in chapter 7.

    " Daniel responded and said, I was watching in my vision by night, and there were four winds of heaven, stirring up the Great Sea.

    And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were plucked and its was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man; and a man's heart was given to it.

    And there was another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and they said thus to it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    After this I watched and there was another beast, like a leopard; and it had four wings of a bird on its back; and the beast had four heads , and dominion was given to it.

    After this I watched in the night visions, and there was a fourth beast, dreadful and frightful and exceedingly strong; and it had large iron teeth; it devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    I was considering the horns; then there was another horn, a small one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted from before it. And there were eyes of a man in this horn and a mouth speaking great things." (Dan. 7:11-8)


    I am not intending a detailed discourse on the details of the symbolism here. My main contribution is that these two chapters show that from man's view on earth human governments are noble and exalted.

    From God's heavenly point of view, human government is necessary but are like monsters arising from the restless turmoils of the world's people. They are like beasts, devouring people, stomping on people, crushing people, damaging lives and oppressing people.

    This would apply to all forms of human government in history.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    04 Apr '17 15:31
    Originally posted by sonship
    From God's heavenly point of view, human government is necessary but are like monsters arising from the restless turmoils of the world's people. They are like beasts, devouring people, stomping on people, crushing people, damaging lives and oppressing people. This would apply to all forms of human government in history.

    And what about your own personal point of view? Is it as profoundly misanthropic and as utterly contemptuous of your fellow humans as the one laid out in the words of yours that I have quoted above?
  5. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 19:242 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    [b]From God's heavenly point of view, human government is necessary but are like monsters arising from the restless turmoils of the world's people. They are like beasts, devouring people, stomping on people, crushing people, damaging lives and oppressing people. This would apply to all forms of human government in history.

    And what about your own perso ...[text shortened]... ptuous of your fellow humans as the one laid out in the words of yours that I have quoted above?[/b]
    To review an exchange we had a few weeks ago.

    I agreed to leave you alone, seeing that announcing the Good News of the Gospel causes a deep irritation to you engendering deep resentment. I further said that this would work well if you did not follow me around so as to seem to "dare" me to talk to you.

    Although there are some things perhaps interesting about the question, I think I'll just leave it where I left it. If you have a contrary viewpoint, you're welcomed to express it. You don't need to ask me anything.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    04 Apr '17 19:38
    Originally posted by sonship
    To review an exchange we had a few weeks ago.

    I agreed to leave you alone, seeing that announcing the Good News of the Gospel causes a deep irritation to you engendering deep resentment. I further said that this would work well if you did not follow me around so as to seem to "dare" me to talk to you.

    Although there are some things perhaps in ...[text shortened]... you have a contrary viewpoint, you're welcomed to express it. You don't need to ask me anything.
    An honest answer to my on-topic question about the view of human government ~ and, by extension, your fellow humans ~ that you expressed, would be more interesting.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 19:543 edits
    So the noble bright image of four sections seen in the king's dream is more of man's general hopeful attitude toward human government.

    The vision of the prophet Daniel looks at the very same governments expressing them as wild beasts.

    Now, here is what Daniel told Nebuchadrezzar about his (Nebuchadrezzar's) dream.

    " You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of the heavens has given kingship, power, and strength and glory." (v.37)


    Under God's sovereignty, He used the Babylonian kingdom to discipline His theocratic nation of Israel for their disobedience to His covenant. So the Babylonian empire, from God's perspective, was a remedial matter.

    Nebuchadrezzar and his Babylonian kingdom were the golden head of the great image of human governments.

    "And whereever the children of men, the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over all of them.

    You are the head of gold." (vs. 38,39)


    Maybe the Nebuchadrezzar couldn't hear much after this. Maybe he thought " I am the head of gold! I am the head of gold! That's right, I am the top." Twenty carat pride probably so occupied him after hearing this interpretation.

    But Babylonian power was eventually overcome by another kingdom of the Medo-Persian empire.

    " And after you another kingdom will arise, inferior to you, and there will be another kingdom, a third one, of bronze, which will rule over all the earth." (v. 39)


    These would be the Medo-Persian empire followed by the Greek empire under Alexander the Great.

    Then the mighty Roman empire is depicted with eventually two parts - the east and the west.

    "And there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron crushed and shatters everything; and like iron that smashes all these, it will crush and smash. (v.40)


    But all told the image is of a man - head of gold, breasts and arms of silver, abdomen and thighs of bronze, and legs of iron.

    The stone cut out without hands is Christ and His overcoming army - (See Rev. 19). And it will come at the end of this present age. At that time partially strong and partially weak governments may represent the many democracies of the 20th and 21rst century.

    "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be fragile.

    And in that you saw the iron mixed with the earthly clay, they will be mixed together through the seed of men, but they will not cleave to one another, even as iron does not mix with clay." (vs.42,43)


    These four main sections do not specifically speak of all the empires and kingdoms of human history. The number four signifies a full representative of creation. Since creation these four governments represent ALL of the human governments that have occurred on earth.

    The representative governments to indicate all human governments are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and the Roman empire.

    The view from the top down is also the view from the past forward until the coming of Christ.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 20:271 edit
    Now I said that the viewpoint of the manlike image was the attitude of men on earth generally about their human governments.

    Someone expressed this axiom -

    "Government is better than no government.
    Good government is better than bad government.
    God's government is best of all. "

    Now consider Daniel's divinely inspired interpretation of human history under Babylon.

    "And wherever the children of men, the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over all of them. You are the head of gold." (v.38)


    This should remind us of God's mandate to created man in Genesis 1:26,27.

    "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing which creeps upon the earth. " (Gen 1:26)


    Because Adam failed to fulfill God's purpose to have a man in His image exercise His dominion of all creation and its creatures, God in a remedial sense, temporarily gave this dominion to the earthly king Nebuchadnrezzar - a representative of human government. Yet he was an oppressive, prideful, and cruel one.

    In the fall of man into sin, death and union with Satan, God's enemy, man does have some hope that human government will hold things together from complete degradation, anarchy and corruption.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 20:28
    In another dream of the king of Babylon Daniel explains that Nebachdrezzar was like a tree under whose shade all the earth's creatures could find "refuge" for a season. That include the poor humans too, conquered by his Babylonian empire. Nebuchadrezzar, in chapter 4, tells Daniel of this additional vision:

    " O Belteshazzar [Daniel] , chief of the magicians, because I know that a spirit of the holy gods is in you and no mystery troubles you, here are the visions of my dream that I have seen; now tell me its interpretation

    ... the visions of my head upon my bed; I was watching and there was a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was great.

    The tree grew great and became stron, and its height reached to heaven, And the sight of it to the end of all the earth. Its foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant,

    And in it was food for all. The beasts of the field found shade under it, And the birds of the sky dwelt in its branches; and all flesh fed from it." (Dan. 4:9-12)


    In reading this seemingly positive dream about Nebuchadrezzar's kingdom of Babylon we must keep in mind the context. Babylon captured Israel and carried the Israelites into captivity. The genuine theocratic nation of Israel was disciplined because of her disobedience to God's covenant. And God, as He warned, allowed her enemies to rise up and prosper. They even wiped the Good Land of Canaan like a plate. All except the poorest of the Israelites were taken into captivity into Babylon.

    That is how Daniel and his companions were there in the first place. They were there under the "shadow" of the Babylonian imperialist kingdom because of God's discipline toward Israel and even the other nations around Israel.

    This is all there in the Bible. You have to read about it.
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    04 Apr '17 21:25
    What's this thread about please?

    (Two sentences max)
  11. Standard membersonship
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    04 Apr '17 21:472 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What's this thread about please?

    (Two sentences max)
    Daniel's visions of human government and history.
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    04 Apr '17 22:211 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]Daniel's visions of human government and history.[/b]
    Nice title, but what's it about, what's the premise, the outcome, the exec summary?
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    04 Apr '17 22:486 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    To review an exchange we had a few weeks ago.

    I agreed to leave you alone, seeing that announcing the Good News of the Gospel causes a deep irritation to you engendering deep resentment. I further said that this would work well if you did not follow me around so as to seem to "dare" me to talk to you.

    Although there are some things perhaps in ...[text shortened]... you have a contrary viewpoint, you're welcomed to express it. You don't need to ask me anything.
    An excellent approach to the problem of the pestilent divegeester. I have tried it myself with reasonable results.

    We are now living in the epoch of the clay mixed with iron. Authoritarian government (iron) mixed with more liberal (softer) elements.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    05 Apr '17 02:08
    Originally posted by sonship
    In the book of [b] Daniel there are two views of all human government. I would submit that there is the view from the standpoint of man on earth. And there is the viewpoint from the sight of God in heaven.

    One view is from "below" and the other is from "above".

    The viewpoint from man's perspective is seen in the story of Nebuchadnezzar's drea ...[text shortened]... the viewpoint from God's perspective is mainly in Daniel's dream in Daniel chapter seven.[/b]
    What is the difference? Both threatened death and punishment by fire for refusal to worship them.
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    05 Apr '17 04:253 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    What is the difference? Both threatened death and punishment by fire for refusal to worship them.
    Concerning death:

    God warned the first man as the head of humanity that in the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die.

    Can you indicate in this passage exactly where you see God saying Adam would die for not worshipping God?

    " And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden
    you may eat freely. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of its you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:16,17)


    I see no instructions about worship.
    I see a warning in a command that Adam should not take into himself the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would cause him to die.

    Where is the word "worship" in Genesis chapter three ? There is not a threat to worship the Creator or else die. There is a warning that to take into himself something dangerous, damaging, against his well being, and forbidden, yet existing in the universe, would cause man to die.

    So as to the origin of death and dying it is slanderous of you to say God threatened man with death for his failure to worship God. Your slander is something like accusing a mother with threatening her child with pain because she warns her child not to touch a very hot burner in the kitchen.

    The warning in the origin of man's creation, I do not see as a threatening from God about worship. But I read a warning about what [not] to take into ourselves so as to become filled with a foreign element which poisons our being.

    God as the source of life warns man, and even commands man not to take another way.
    But "worship" per se is not part of the warning.

    " ... Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" (Gen. 3:11)


    The warning concerning death originated with instructions for man not to take INTO himself a "poison" as a corrupting foreign "element" which would bring death into man.

    It is important to me to consider the origin of the need for salvation from death.

    That's enough for this post.
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