Two Views of Human Government

Originally posted by vivify
What is the difference? Both threatened death and punishment by fire for refusal to worship them.

The previous post of mine showed that the entrance of death into the human race says nothing about worship per se. Rather it is about what Adam took into himself that polluted him bringing in death and collapse of humanity away from God the source of life.

Fire is not mentioned in this story of the origin of the entrance of death into the world.

However, we are told that the eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels. If man refuses to be saved from being joined to the Devil, he will of necessity share in the destiny prepared for the Devil.

" Then He will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)

Refusing to be extricated from the rebellion of the devil and his angels will result in sharing the miserable destiny prepared FOR the devil and his angels.

And being joined to the Son of God results in sharing in the eternity of the glorious destiny of the Son of God. We will go with our leader and co-share the assigned destiny of that leader to whom we are joined.

The eternal fire is not mentioned in Genesis's account of the fall of man.
And worship is really not mentioned in the passage of Matthew 25:31-46.

To be fair, the warning of fire is mentioned in connection with worshipping the Antichrist, his image and receiving his mark in Revelation 14.

This age will conclude with a person who will physically fight against Christ with his armies. And he like Nebuchadrezzar, threatens men with worship or not being able to buy or sell anything or even live.

It is at this time the saints remaining on the earth should recall God's protection of the three Hebrew men who were faithful even unto the threat of death.

No vivify, I do not regard God and the Savior Jesus Christ (God incarnate) as just another Nebuchadrezzar.

That's enough for one post here.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
An excellent approach to the problem of the pestilent divegeester. I have tried it myself with reasonable results.

We are now living in the epoch of the clay mixed with iron. Authoritarian government (iron) mixed with more liberal (softer) elements.

The nations on become partly autocratic and partly democratic.

The ten toes of the image signify the ten kings of the revived and restored Roman Empire under Antichrist. (See also Revelation 17:1,2) .

I agree with the interpretation that after the fall of the Roman Empire (the Eastern and Western parts) signified by the two legs of iron, many nations afterward are symbolized by the iron mixed with clay. The period of history symbolized by the three parts of the great human image and the two legs have been fulfilled.

The smashing of the toes of iron and clay will culminate in the smashing of the ten kings of a revived Roman empire which will involve ten kings delivering ultimate authority to Antichrist.

With the second coming of Christ all human governments will be done away. And we can see that the existence of money itself will be made obsolete. Mammon will fail (Luke 16:9). Money in its existence is destroyed in Christ's government over the planet.

New American Standard Bible
"And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous money so that when it fails, they may welcome you into eternal dwellings.

Christ's divine kingship and divine liberality and restoration of the environment to deal with shortage of resources will facilitate the obsolescence of financial empires and the wars between nations because of greed and covetousness infesting fallen mankind.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
An excellent approach to the problem of the pestilent divegeester. I have tried it myself with reasonable results.

But he was talking to FMF not me Robbie.

What "reasonable results" are you talking about? You have myself on double-secret ignore which only seems to frustrate youself more as you still try to communicate with me through this sort of reply-by-proxy thing you do. It's amusing to the rest of us 🙂

Originally posted by sonship
The nations on become partly autocratic and partly democratic.

The ten toes of the image signify the ten kings of the revived and restored Roman Empire under Antichrist. (See also [b]Revelation 17:1,2) .

I agree with the interpretation that after the fall of the Roman Empire (the Eastern and Western parts) signified by the two legs of iron, many ...[text shortened]... empires and the wars between nations because of greed and covetousness infesting fallen mankind.[/b]

Ok so you're not going to provide a preci...well I won't be reading the rest of it I'm afraid. However I will be interested to see if Carrobie absorbs any of your teaching.

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok so you're not going to provide a preci...well I won't be reading the rest of it I'm afraid. However I will be interested to see if Carrobie absorbs any of your teaching.

The OP explains my drift.

Originally posted by sonship
The OP explains my drift.

"There is a view from above, and there is a view from below"...Is that your "drift"?

My point here is, do you have a point, or is this just a plagiarised local church corporate sermon that you are regurgitating?

Originally posted by divegeester
"There is a view from above, and there is a view from below"...Is that your "drift"?

My point here is, do you have a point, or is this just a plagiarised local church corporate sermon that you are regurgitating?

1.) What is a "corporate sermon" ?

2.) What is a "local church corporate sermon" ?

If you are aware of some publication that I have plagiarized from verbatim, please quote it to substantiate that I lifted it. You further should substantiate that I purposely purported to the public that that was my original writing.

You may send examples to the law office of Living Stream Ministry to the attention of Andrew Yu or Ron Kangus. If you feel that I have gone beyond the public fair use of some portion of a LSM publication.

Send your sample of my alleged plagiarism to:

Living Stream Ministry
1853 W. Ball Road
Anahiem, CA 92804

You may accompany your accusation and sample with a link to the post on this Forum that you feel is my act of plagiarism.


There is a "search engine" for many of the books from which I have derived spiritual help on www.ministrybooks.org. You may search for the publication that you say I have plagiarized.

It is unfortunate that you have to resort to this low level of slander to substitute for discussion of the topic.

I have participated in this Forum for many years. Most people engaging me can recall my custom when quoting books that I like, is to the provide the source by way of link. I have no intention to falsely claiming as my own writing something I quote. I certainly do not have any profit or financial motive for quoting.

In this discussion, I expect you to show me which post was plagiarism.
If you cannot you should retract your accusation.
If you do not retract your accusation and cannot produce the instance of plagiarism then that is the loss to you and the stain on your character.

So produce the plagiarized material or retract your false slanderous accusation.

Lastly Divegeester, on this accusation of plagiarizing "corporate sermons" -

Lastly, you meant to say this to shame me. But I am honored to have been able to repeat in my own words teachings I have received from others. I am sorry if you don't have shepherds and teachers in whom you have derived blessing to the point that you feel to pass on to others the benefit you received, if anyone is interested.

My relationship to some of the good teachers I have been blessed by is much like the relationship between Timothy and his senior minister Paul the Apostle. Paul told Timothy not to be ashamed of him [Paul] or any persecution he was under along with the very gospel of Christ.

" Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony or our Lord nor of me His prisoner; but suffer evil with the gospel according to the power of God." ( 2 Timothy 1:8)

Your lousy advice would have probably been for Timothy to be careful not to plagiarize Paul's "corporate sermons".

You intended for me to feel shame. But I feel quite honored to speak the same things as other experienced Christian teachers. Paul instructed his co-worker Timothy to speak the same healthy teachings that he received from the Holy Spirit through Paul.

" Hold to a pattern of healthy words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. " (2 Tim. 1:14)

Paul also told his younger colleague to "guard" such healthy teaching by the Holy Spirit.

" ... healthy words which you heard from me ... Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us." ( 13a,14)

What you intended for slander and shame, I take a privilege and dignity to be able to repeat healthy teachers.

So your attempt to slander backfires totally. I am not ashamed to speak the same things as servants of God most assuredly used by the Spirit of Christ.

To give credit to where credit is due, the footnotes of the Recovery Version of the Bible can be consulted to see many points that I used in this thread under a reasonable public fair use policy.

Many posters, fans and detractors of my views alike, should be able to vouch that I very often SOURCE direct quotes from spiritual books. Here's a relative example now of what I usually do:

THE ENTIRE IMAGE BEING BABYLON

In the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in chapter two, only the head of the great human image was called Babylon. However, if the head is Babylon, the entire image must also be Babylon.

The Bible reveals that the human image seen by Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 actually did not begin with Nebuchadnezzar but with Nimrod, who founded the city of Babel (Gen. 10:9-10). The building of Babel by Nimrod was the beginning of Babylon. Babylon has since continued through the Medo-Persian Empire, the Grecian Empire, and the Roman Empire. It will eventually include the last Caesar of the Roman Empire, Antichrist, with his ten kings, signified by the toes of the great image (Dan. 2:41-44). The book of Revelation tells us that under Antichrist, the last Caesar, the Roman Empire will be both political and religious Babylon. Revelation 18 refers to the empire of Antichrist as the political and physical Babylon, that is, "Babylon the Great" (v. 2). Furthermore, through Constantine the Great, who accepted Christianity as the state religion, the nature of Christianity was changed to become the Catholic Church, which in Revelation 17 is called "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT" (v. 5). This is the religious Babylon. Therefore, from the Bible we see that not only Babylon itself is Babylon, but even the Roman Empire is Babylon.

From Life Study of Daniel by Witness Lee.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1A

(For any who would like to read further)

Originally posted by sonship to divegeester
So produce the plagiarized material or retract your false slanderous accusation.

He merely asked you a question. The almost apoplectic vanity of your reaction speaks volumes.

Originally posted by FMF
He merely asked you a question. The almost apoplectic vanity of your reaction speaks volumes.

Petty.

You WOULD regard his accusation as merely asking a question. Because such innuendos are what you do all the time.

No FMF, accusing me (in a question) of plagiarism is subtle, slimy and twisted. And I won't let it stand. And I don't intend to get the "approval" for my reply to Dive from you. For all I know he may have learned the tactic by imitation, from you.

The so-called "mere question" of Divegeester -

My point here is, do you have a point, or is this just a plagiarized local church corporate sermon that you are regurgitating?

I think he perhaps Dive is only use to being adrift and individualistic with no good instructors and teachers whose lives have been an example to follow in word and love for Christ.

I feel quite good that I am filled up in my heart with not only the word of God but "healthy teaching" of spiritual men and women who have been a help to me.


No, Dive. I have no need to say "Hey everybody, I can say something original! Look at me write something so original."

The lessons have become mine through life experience and my own confirming study.
I feel quite good to let people know where and from whom I received some great spiritual help in life and in understanding the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
Petty.

You WOULD regard his accusation as merely asking a question. Because such innuendos is what you do all the time.

No FMF, accusing me (in a question) of plagiarism is subtle, slimy and twisted. And I won't let it stand. And I don't intend to get the "approval" of my reply from you. For all I know he may have learned the tactic by imitation, from you.

I seem to remember you likening people to Holocaust deniers for not believing the same things as you, so it's a bit rich to hear you calling people "slimy and twisted".

Originally posted by FMF
I seem to remember you likening people to Holocaust deniers for not believing the same things as you, so it's a bit rich to hear you calling people "slimy and twisted".

You have a real serious problem with remembering personal offenses.

Your "remembrance" of my words lack often a realistic recall [edited] of the context and way I said something.

I think that what you remember is what you FELT.
I think you remember the FEELING you had when you read such words.

I don't think you well remember context and actually the way something was said.

The Lord Jesus said to "Take heed how you hear"
I think your hearing is damaged by your very subjective defense mechanisms.
What you remember is the feeling of being offended.

I do not intend to dig up that old discussion. For your review of it is false. No, I did not and would not say everyone who does not believe is like a Holocaust denier in a moral sense.

YOU honed into the moral aspect of being a Holocaust denier. As I recall, my reference was to the definiteness of the historical realism of what happened. And that denial I think i compared to a denial of some aspect of the history of the Christian church (probably regarding its founder Christ).

That discussion is gone now. And unless you can reproduce it from the archive I certainly don't trust your memory of what I wrote in context and in tone.

Basically, I use the Holocaust to argue that only after that generation passed away many times over, would anyone dare to deny that it happened.

You appear to me to be a man with grudges and unforgiven offenses a mile long.
Maybe one day if you realize what God is willing to forgive you, you would be more willing to forgive and forget offenses you feel from others.

Go muse on that for a good rememberance. The reason you're going to lick your wounds for the rest of your life until you die, is most likely because you don't know how much you yourself need forgiveness for your offenses to others.

See? Now you got a bit of the Gospel again. I warned you.
You're full of unforgiveness because you don't appreciate how much you yourself need forgiveness from God in Christ.

Now since you really remember stuff I write for years, remember that bit of writing.

Originally posted by sonship
Basically, I use the Holocaust to argue that only after that generation passed away many times over, would anyone dare to deny that it happened.

You managed to silence DeepThought with your Holocaust denier comparison though.

Originally posted by sonship
The reason you're going to lick your wounds for the rest of your life until you die, is most likely because you don't know how much you yourself need forgiveness for your offenses to others. See? Now you got a bit of the Gospel again. I warned you.

You are "warning" me that I need "forgiveness" from your god figure for my "offences" to you?