1. Hmmm . . .
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    23 Jul '10 21:121 edit
    Unseen Shiva Dances On

    —There stands at CERN, the world’s largest particle physics laboratory, located outside Geneva, Switzerland, a large statue of Shiva Nataraja who, according to the inscription, “dances the Ananda Tandava in the twilight”.

    Unseen Shiva dances on
    in the throb of a pulsar
    or of the sun—galaxies
    and dreams whirl, worlds within worlds—
    bright strings of energy spin
    far-flung chakras into bloom,
    wild and wordless harmonies
    forming and unforming forms,
    flashing, ever-changing chains,
    bundles of universes
    beginning to beginning
    throughout the unbounded round

    —and the consciousness that weaves
    meaning in the dancing mind
    from a matrix of sparkling
    figures, projected against
    the expressive unseen ground—

    All—the cosmic tandava
    of shiva-shakti-spanda,
    power, vibration and sound.



    Om namaha Shivaya
    Ayam atma Shiva om


    ________________________________________________

    Note: In Kashmir Shaivism, despite its use of theistic symbolism, there is no exogenous god-being as in western monotheism. It is as non-dualistic as Advaita Vedanta.
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Jul '10 02:14
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]Unseen Shiva Dances On

    —There stands at CERN, the world’s largest particle physics laboratory, located outside Geneva, Switzerland, a large statue of Shiva Nataraja who, according to the inscription, “dances the Ananda Tandava in the twilight”.

    Unseen Shiva dances on
    in the throb of a pulsar
    or of the sun—galaxies
    and dreams whirl, wor ...[text shortened]... is no exogenous god-being as in western monotheism. It is as non-dualistic as Advaita Vedanta.[/b]
    So what does putting this statue outside of a scientific institue mean?
    Surely the scientists are not paying homage to the great avatar of hinduism and admitting that what the ancients have been saying has been right all along; it is just now that we are able to prove it(?!)
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    24 Jul '10 02:53
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    So what does putting this statue outside of a scientific institue mean?
    Surely the scientists are not paying homage to the great avatar of hinduism and admitting that what the ancients have been saying has been right all along; it is just now that we are able to prove it(?!)
    On the one, hand, you’d have to ask them (I haven’t researched that question). On the other hand, I’d speculate that their studies in quantum physics, and string theory and the like, suggest some metaphorical parallels.

    Anyway, my wife came across the CERN Shiva while I have been reading texts of Kashmir Shaivism (the Shiva Sutras and the Spanda-Karikas).
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Jul '10 03:051 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    On the one, hand, you’d have to ask them (I haven’t researched that question). On the other hand, I’d speculate that their studies in quantum physics, and string theory and the like, suggest some metaphorical parallels.

    Anyway, my wife came across the CERN Shiva while I have been reading texts of Kashmir Shaivism (the Shiva Sutras and the Spanda-Karikas).
    I suspect the same,( thay are acknowledging the links between quantum and eastern spirituality). There are strong implications there, I wonder if our scientific/aethiest friends will pick up on them? πŸ™‚

    Do you feel it was coincidence that you were reading Kashmir Shavism while you wife came across shiva? How do you feel about "coincidences"?
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    24 Jul '10 04:031 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I suspect the same,( thay are acknowledging the links between quantum and eastern spirituality). There are strong implications there, I wonder if our scientific/aethiest friends will pick up on them? πŸ™‚

    Do you feel it was coincidence that you were reading Kashmir Shavism while you wife came across shiva? How do you feel about "coincidences"?
    First of all, I don’t believe there is an exogenous-to-the-universe god-being. I am a nondualist. So I think the real problematic dichotomy is between those who insist on literality in various spiritual/religious expressions, and those who don’t.

    With regard to coincidence—well, maybe it’s a matter of Jungian synchronicity: coincidental events that, because of the apparent context, we are able to read subjective meaning into (someone else might read something different). Also, it’s just possible that many events are causally complex, in inter-related ways, so that we cannot identify all the connections. It's fun when it happens, though--and may lead to some insights, and that's enough.

    Here is my underlying position (which I have not yet found a satisfactory—to me—way of expressing): spirituality, for wont of a better word, is fundamentally about our aesthetic-existential response to the ineffable Real that precedes all our conceptualizations and attempts at describing or explaining (let alone systematizing!) it—and includes us even in those activities! That is why I prefer the open-ended expressions found in poetry and art and (especially) music.

    I of course argue—you know that! What attempts at conceptualization that I make I wish to be reasonable, and I know of no better way to test that (and perhaps argument can have its own aesthetic). But I try not to confuse the thoughts with the thing. And when I use allusive, elicitive and aesthetic speech (such as a poem, or a koan, or a paradoxical aphorism), I am not arguing a proposition: those are intended just as “fingers pointing to the moon”. They are two different modes of discourse; and I think that literalists sometimes get them confused.

    ________________________________________________________

    EDIT:

    Hafiz once wrote a wonderful poem about a bunch of intoxicated insects singing and dancing under the moon. Two of them, tired out, sat down. One pointed to the moon and asked “Now what are we to do about that moon?!” (LemonJello originally introduced me to that poem.)

    Hafiz lamented that people so often lay aside the music of life to ask such questions, that end up leading to all kinds of speculations. No harm in that, per se—but it also leads to doctrines and dogmas and the like.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Jul '10 09:18
    Originally posted by vistesd
    First of all, I don’t believe there is an exogenous-to-the-universe god-being. I am a nondualist. So I think the real problematic dichotomy is between those who insist on literality in various spiritual/religious expressions, and those who don’t.

    With regard to coincidence—well, maybe it’s a matter of Jungian synchronicity: coincidental events that, be ...[text shortened]... speculations. No harm in that, per se—but it also leads to doctrines and dogmas and the like.
    No harm ,per se, but it just leaves us with more "branches" to cut down,(rather than attacking the root πŸ˜‰ )

    So what about Jungs archetypes? Do you think they are accurate?
    (I was going to start a thread about archetypes but perhaps I could hijack this oneπŸ™‚ )
  7. SubscriberProper Knob
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    24 Jul '10 09:39
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]Unseen Shiva Dances On

    —There stands at CERN, the world’s largest particle physics laboratory, located outside Geneva, Switzerland, a large statue of Shiva Nataraja who, according to the inscription, “dances the Ananda Tandava in the twilight”.

    Unseen Shiva dances on
    in the throb of a pulsar
    or of the sun—galaxies
    and dreams whirl, wor ...[text shortened]... is no exogenous god-being as in western monotheism. It is as non-dualistic as Advaita Vedanta.[/b]
    An explanation for the monument can be found here -

    http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shiva.html
  8. Hmmm . . .
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    24 Jul '10 20:48
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    An explanation for the monument can be found here -

    http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shiva.html
    Thank you. A partial quote:

    ...Fritjof Capra explained that "Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but is also the very essence of inorganic matter," and that "For the modern physicists, then, Shiva's dance is the dance of subatomic matter."

    It is indeed as Capra concluded: "Hundreds of years ago, Indian artists created visual images of dancing Shivas in a beautiful series of bronzes. In our time, physicists have used the most advanced technology to portray the patterns of the cosmic dance. The metaphor of the cosmic dance thus unifies ancient mythology, religious art and modern physics."
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    26 Jul '10 04:38
    "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra is an interesting book...about the relationship between mysticism and quantum physics.

    "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" is another good one.

    Nikolai Tesla was also interested in mysticism. He was a big fan of Swami Vivekananda, an Indian saint who came to the West around 1900. He was one of the few people that Mahatma Gandhi recognized as a saint.
  10. Cape Town
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    26 Jul '10 04:56
    Originally posted by r99pawn77
    ...about the relationship between mysticism and quantum physics.
    I am not convinced that any such relationship exists. As humans, we readily see patterns and recognize similarities between branches of science and religious beliefs, but that does not mean that one reflects the other or that they are related.
    Too often, people think that the religious belief somehow correctly guessed or predicted the reality of science, when it is not the case at all. Even worse, they misunderstand the science because they are too focused on finding a relationship.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Jul '10 08:322 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I am not convinced that any such relationship exists. As humans, we readily see patterns and recognize similarities between branches of science and religious beliefs, but that does not mean that one reflects the other or that they are related.
    Too often, people think that the religious belief somehow correctly guessed or predicted the reality of science, ...[text shortened]... en worse, they misunderstand the science because they are too focused on finding a relationship.
    As anthropomorphists, we readily see patterns...
    All things are related.
    The ten thousand things come from the one thing, and vice versa.
    Coincidence is just a nice way of explaining Maya...
    Man, I'm so depressed.
    Nevertheless, no amount of explaining will convince you that all is one. This is something you experience for yourself.
    Do you want this experience, or do you want to remain on the outside with your peer-reviewed critiques?
    I really dont care- All I know is that before I experienced "one-ness" I didn't know anything either. Now I know even less.
  12. Standard memberua41
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    26 Jul '10 14:28
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    As anthropomorphists, we readily see patterns...
    All things are related.
    The ten thousand things come from the one thing, and vice versa.
    Coincidence is just a nice way of explaining Maya...
    Man, I'm so depressed.
    Nevertheless, no amount of explaining will convince you that all is one. This is something you experience for yourself.
    Do you want th ...[text shortened]... is that before I experienced "one-ness" I didn't know anything either. Now I know even less.
    😡
  13. London
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    01 Sep '10 14:47
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Note: In Kashmir Shaivism, despite its use of theistic symbolism, there is no exogenous god-being as in western monotheism. It is as non-dualistic as Advaita Vedanta.
    What is the view of material/physical reality in Kashmir Saivism? Is it maya (illusion) as in Sankara's Advaita or realist as in Ramanuja's Qualified Advaita?
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