Was God a hypocrite or what?

Originally posted by twhitehead

But the question remains, is the God of the Bible a hypocrite?

It's easy to test. Is God on record as having professed beliefs and opinions that God does not hold?

Originally posted by black beetle
The case regarding the existence of "god" follows an evolutional process and is based on many versions because it is associated with local apocalyptical traditions instead of facts.This evolution is a string that begins with the Animism and then with the polytheistic religions, and finally with the monotheist religions like Judaism and its derived branc ee monotheistic religions and this machinery is used constantly for social manipulation;

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"Sins" is the machinery of these three monotheistic religions and this machinery is used constantly for social manipulation;

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Hold on. For years my wife and I have enjoyed spending time to commune with God in fellowship. We read the Bible and sing Scriptures songs or hymns and pray for needs around the world and praise our God.

I enjoy very much a private time just to take in Christ for the sheer beauty of who God is. Often it has nothing to do with sins at all. I just love God for Who He is. I also serve in my congregation to help the young people enjoy Christ in communion and fellowship.

How is this social munipulation? Who is munipulating me in my hours of enjoyment and service to Christ? What you are accusing is like saying my love for my father and mother or wife is social munipulation.


What are "they" socially munipulating me for, to buy more Nikke shoes? Who is socially munipulatng me and for what ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================

"Sins" is the machinery of these three monotheistic religions and this machinery is used constantly for social manipulation;

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Hold on. For years my wife and I have enjoyed spending time to commune with God in fellowship. We read the Bible and sing Scriptures songs or ...[text shortened]... munipulating me for, to buy more Nikke shoes? Who is socially munipulatng me and for what ?[/b]

Dear friend,

kindly please feel free to keep up your way of living -I am the last person in earth to deny you this obvious right; but we had a converstation regarding OT and the mass murder of every animal an human being of the planet due to the so called sins of the human race. Well, my note regarding "sins" has to do exactly with this topic.

Social manipulation is achieved through "Religion" big time, and this is proven by the human history. If you have a dfifferent opinion and you thing that religionism is just an illusion of mine, consider that I have already lend you my ears.

Originally posted by black beetle
Dear friend,

kindly please feel free to keep up your way of living -I am the last person in earth to deny you this obvious right; but we had a converstation regarding OT and the mass murder of every animal an human being of the planet due to the so called sins of the human race. Well, my note regarding "sins" has to do exactly with this topic.

Soc ...[text shortened]... that religionism is just an illusion of mine, consider that I have already lend you my ears.

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Dear friend,

kindly please feel free to keep up your way of living -I am the last person in earth to deny you this obvious right; but we had a converstation regarding OT and the mass murder of every animal an human being of the planet due to the so called sins of the human race. Well, my note regarding "sins" has to do exactly with this topic.
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Thank you Friend.

Of course my Bible doesn't end with Genesis chapter 7. There is quite a bit more to contemplate after chapter 7 and after the whole book of Genesis.

The New Testament tells me that the ark is a type of Christ. And since Christ and His salvation are so deeply profound it took a long time to educate man. For example if we didn't think that God hated sin then we would not appreciate what it meant for the Son of God to be judged for the sins of all people throughout all history.

A backround had to be provide to the hatefulness and awfulness of sin and its judgment to recognize that the reality of the saving ark of Noah is the Son of God Himself.

I don't stop and choke on Noah's flood. I keep on all the way to the incarnation of Christ and the judgment that came upon His righteous and truly innocent being for the sins of all people as an act of God's great love and mercy.

I guess you didn't notice the following chapters about the rainbow and the assurance of God that He would not again wipe out all life with a flood.


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Social manipulation is achieved through "Religion" big time, and this is proven by the human history.
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Maybe social munipulation is also achieved through playing the game of chess and listening to music. Do you give up playing chess? Have you dumped all of your music albums?


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If you have a dfifferent opinion and you thing that religionism is just an illusion of mine, consider that I have already lend you my ears.
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I think it is easy to complain about religion. Jesus did more than just complian about religion. He showed man how to live by God. He demonstrated what a life in oneness with God looks like.

Sometimes I think the only thing more self rightoeus than religion people are people who point out the faults of religious people.

You see Christ said to me "[You] follow Me". So I don't care how munipulative religion is. I intend to follow Jesus. He didn't say "Be religious". He said "Follow Me".

I don't think anyone is "getting away" with anything. At least as a Christian I know that I will one day stand before Christ and have to give an account of my Christian life. If I were an agnostic or and atheist I would only believe that everyone will only dissolve peacefully into the dust with no final accounting to an Ultimate Governor.

Where is the justice in that?

The "sin" issue is the cornerstone of Christianism; without "sin", you understand that "religion" is worthless. Genesis starts this way in order to provide a "just" ground for the reason of the religion. To get over with this exact issue, I repeat that that nobody is born sinful.

Reople don't need a religion in order to be fair. But they obviously need to respect Life and to have common sense. Therefore anybody can be decent and not have a "religion".

Your quote regarding chess is rather ill considered: nobody can manipulate you over the chessboard. The essence of the royal game is ones ability to evaluate correctly each position, and this process has specific techniques that they enable him to to do.

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The "sin" issue is the cornerstone of Christianism;
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There is no sin in the first two chapters of Genesis where we are told why God created man. He created man in His image and commited to man dominion.

So aside from the issue of sin there is in my Christian faith the purpose of man's creation. God did not create man simply for the sake of forgiving his sins.

God is not nearly as interested in your sins as you imagine. He is interested more in man being united and one with Himself as Christ the man was God / Man united.

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without "sin", you understand that "religion" is worthless.
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I don't know what and what does not make religion worthless. I do know that Christ is a living Person and not a religion. Man may have tried hard to make Christ into a religion. But that does not effect that fact that millions of us believers only know Christ as a living Person.

And His call to us is to come more and more into this realization that He is a living Person.

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Genesis starts this way in order to provide a "just" ground for the reason of the religion. To get over with this exact issue, I repeat that that nobody is born sinful.
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Genesis starts with God creating the heavens and the earth. That's not very religious. It explains why there is something rather than nothing.

Genesis goes on to show a gradiation of lives. At the top of this many layers scheme is man who is created in the image of God and ordained to be God's deputy authority over His creation. At the top of the pinnicle of creatures is the man made in the image of God.


Above man is the uncreated divine life of God as represented in "the tree of life". Man is created good, innocent, and ready to receive into himself a the uncreated and divine life of God as signified in "the tree of life".

Aside from the matter of sin and sins the foundation of the revelation of the Bible is God the source of creation creating a creature man, who reflects Gods nature in some way. And this man is at the top of the ladder of lives on the earth. He is placed before the tree of life which represents the uncreated and divine life of God Himself.

I know this because the Apostle Paul says that man in his fall was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18).

He was not simply seperated from knowing God. He was alienated from the life of God. God wants to dispense Himself into man. God want to impart Himself into man so that God and man might be mingled together.

My main point here is that apart from the matter of sin the Bible tells us of the eternal purpose of God. He did not create human beings solely for the sake of forgiving them of sins. He created man as a vessel to dispense Himself into them in a united, blended, and mingled way for His glory and man's enjoyment.

What else was Christ except a man thoroughly united, blended, mingled, and incorporated with God?

Maybe I'll come back to the matter of morality without religion. I agree that a person can have a sense of moral decency without being religious.

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Your quote regarding chess is rather ill considered: nobody can manipulate you over the chessboard. The essence of the royal game is ones ability to evaluate correctly each position, and this process has specific techniques that they enable him to to do.
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I have heard of Psychological chess. As a matter of fact the world's champion Tal was adept at munipulating his opponent psychologically. He would sometimes stand up and go around in back of his opponent to see the board from his angle. Rather intimidating. Tal would also sometimes make a move at a tournament and turn around and grin at the audience of grandmasters as if to say "Can you see the brilliance of that move ?"

All these things were munipulation of the opponant psychologically.

Anyway, whether you agree or not, that religion can be a tool to munipulate is not a statement on the unreality of God. It is a statement on the depravity of sinful man to use that which is known to be holy and transcendent and pure (Christ and God) in order to carry out ungodly matters.

I don't let that stop me from loving Christ. To do so I feel would be to try to use an excuse to rationalize why I should not listen to the truth of God.

"Well, since there is so much corrupt religion, I didn't believe in the Son of God and I did not receive Him as Lord. I was afraid that I would not have self control and I might become a one man Spanish Inquisition or a Salem Witch burner. See, I have a good reason not to repent of my own sins and be saved through Christ's loving sacrifice for me."

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==================================
The "sin" issue is the cornerstone of Christianism;
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There is no sin in the first two chapters of Genesis where we are told why God created man. He created man in His image and commited to man dominion.

So aside from the issue of sin there is in my Christian faith the ...[text shortened]... my own sins and be saved through Christ's loving sacrifice for me."[/b]

Definately Christianism is a religon based on the "sin" issue; furthermore, in order to have the human race "saved", Jesus suffered a death on the cross. Any Christian from his very steps in this religion is teached extensively that everybody is sinful due to the Adam and Eve issue, and that he will be saved only if he becomes a good Christian. And, in order to become a good Christian, he must obey to ...you know the drill.

It's ok with me your opinion with Genesis. Maybe it's ok for you to state whether or not the theory of the Evolution is more solid or not than the Genesis' tale.

And Mikhail!!!! Tal was vigorous like the angel after whom he took his name, a man full of joy though he suffered a lot coz of his disordered health. Tal was a real player, one amongst the most brilliant ones, and he was constantly trying to complicate each position in order to achieve a time pressure advance against his opponent. Why one has to simplify if he can complicate??
Anyway, the incident you described is not manipulation; it is just the ecentric taste of humour of tht brillint player. In addition, many of his combinations were genious. Kindly please dig a bit at his style, starting with a rare brilliancy which is not so known to players under 2000elo OTB: Tal-Koblencs, Training Game, Riga 1957. Then kindly please let me know about "manipulation" regarding Tal's 27.Nd4!

Originally posted by black beetle
Definately Christianism is a religon based on the "sin" issue; furthermore, in order to have the human race "saved", Jesus suffered a death on the cross. Any Christian from his very steps in this religion is teached extensively that everybody is sinful due to the Adam and Eve issue, and that he will be saved only if he becomes a good Christian. And, in Riga 1957. Then kindly please let me know about "manipulation" regarding Tal's 27.Nd4!

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Definately Christianism is a religon based on the "sin" issue;
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Sin is the main problem separating people from God.

But what kind of disciple and lover of Christ you want to be is up to you.

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furthermore, in order to have the human race "saved", Jesus suffered a death on the cross.
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His death on the cross has three aspects to it:

1.) Redemptive
2.) Terminative
3.) Germinative

His blood was shed to cleanse us of our sins as the Lamb of God - that is redemptive.

He died so that in His Spirit is the terminating power to kill off the germs of the fallen Adamic nature. We are crucified with Him and buried with Him. That is terminative.

He died to break open the shell of His humanity which concealed the divine life so that that life might be reproduced in many people;

"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it does, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

This is the germinative aspect of His death. He would not abide alone as the one man with God's life in Him. He fell into the ground to die to produce many grains, that is many sons of God with the Father's life in them also.

Chrstianity can be superfiscial. There is no reason for you to prefer the superficiality as an target for your skepticism. Many of us go deeper because it depends upon us what kind of disciples we wish to be.

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Any Christian from his very steps in this religion is teached extensively that everybody is sinful due to the Adam and Eve issue,
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That is true. Sin is the main thing which separates people from God. However there is also the problem of death - spiritual death. The removal of sin is so that we may get out of spiritual death and live God, live unto God, live out God, and allow God to live in us.

You didn't notice how many times "life" is mentioned in the Gospel of John? He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.

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and that he will be saved only if he becomes a good Christian.
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Where is the passage saying that we can only be saved if we become "a good Christian"? Are you basing your understanding of the Christian faith on what you have read in the New Testament?

I don't let any of these things stop me from diving deeper into the New Testament and meet with the thousands upon thousands of brothers and sisters who also aspire to the deeper Christian experience.

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And, in order to become a good Christian, he must obey to ...you know the drill.
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God doesn't want good Christians. He wants God Christians. That is to live in the Triune God as a living Person.

What you are doing is like me complaining that I don't want to study astronomy because all the children only say "Twinkle, twinkle little star."

Since all they do is say "twinkle twinkle little star" cosmology is superficial and not worth my time to get into it.

Same difference. Where is your hunger ? No one advances spiritually without a hunger.

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And Mikhail!!!! Tal was vigorous like the angel after whom he took his name, a man full of joy though he suffered a lot coz of his disordered health. Tal was a real player, one amongst the most brilliant ones, and he was constantly trying to complicate each position in order to achieve a time pressure advance against his opponent. Why one has to simplify if he can complicate??

Anyway, the incident you described is not manipulation; it is just the ecentric taste of humour of tht brillint player.
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Maybe. I think psychological adnvantage is part and partial with the game myself. What sport or game does not have some amount of trying to intimidate your opponent? That is all munipulation. No big deal really.

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In addition, many of his combinations were genious. Kindly please dig a bit at his style, starting with a rare brilliancy which is not so known to players under 2000elo OTB: Tal-Koblencs, Training Game, Riga 1957. Then kindly please let me know about "manipulation" regarding Tal's 27.Nd4!
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You misunderstand me. I did not mean to say he was not a great player. Obviously he did not get to be a world's champion by not knowing how to play chess.

How about you and I get around to a game? But I am not too strong a player. I'll challenge you sometime if you'll accept.

Take a break from theology.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
Definately Christianism is a religon based on the "sin" issue;
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Sin is the main problem separating people from God.

But what kind of disciple and lover of Christ you want to be is up to you.

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furthermore, in order to have the hu ...[text shortened]... allenge you sometime if you'll accept.

Take a break from theology.

I would be glad to play a game with you when I 'll come back after my 15 days summer vacation, which starts today; within the very next few hours I wiil not have the chance to dip in RHP -I 'll be wandering on the Greek mountains with my beautiful Maria🙂

edit: "Sin is the main problem separating people from God."

But this opinion of yours is based merely on your faith. And I already explained what I think about the biblical concept of sin.


edit: "Are you basing your understanding of the Christian faith on what you have read in the New Testament?"

I am not a Christian and I don't have the intention to deep in the "Christian experience"; one can have his spirituality without being Christian, and there 's no way to claim that the so called "deeper Christian experience" is different or superior than the deeper "Islam/ Hindu/ Judaist ect. experience"; everybody can surely be a decent and not "sinful" citizen without being Christian, and alo obtain his spiriualism.


edit: "His death on the cross has three aspects to it:

1.) Redemptive
2.) Terminative
3.) Germinative"

I know what for Christianism stands; those three aspects, as you admit you too right on, they took part just because the human race is considered sinful. But this is not logical at all, as I already stated earlier;

edit: "God doesn't want good Christians. He wants God Christians. That is to live in the Triune God as a living Person."

Maybe, my friend! But "gods'" administration in this planet are the priests, which from times to times they have a different than yours opinion depending on their hunger for social power, and they hesitate not to declare it, thus originating tenths of heresies from which each one claims that is the sole interpretor that knows exactly what is the will of the "god"; and the followers of each heresy have to cope with the main doctrine and the orders of that heresy if thy want to be "good Christians";

Finally, I strongly disagree with your idea regarding the royal game. A strong player never wants to intimidate his opponent. In contrary, he constantly seeks for a strong opponent in order to share with him the very essence of chess. Just think how boring is to play against a much weaker player than yourself! The players that play for the reason you think, they act so this way in every aspect of their life due to their character and not because chess is a tool of manipulation;

Originally posted by black beetle
I would be glad to play a game with you when I 'll come back after my 15 days summer vacation, which starts today; within the very next few hours I wiil not have the chance to dip in RHP -I 'll be wandering on the Greek mountains with my beautiful Maria🙂

edit: "Sin is the main problem separating people from God."

But this opinion of yours is bas ...[text shortened]... to their character and not because chess is a tool of manipulation;

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I would be glad to play a game with you when I 'll come back after my 15 days summer vacation, which starts today; within the very next few hours I wiil not have the chance to dip in RHP -I 'll be wandering on the Greek mountains with my beautiful Maria
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It sounds very nice. I like the bright white sunlight houses in Greece. I have never been there.

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edit: "Sin is the main problem separating people from God."

But this opinion of yours is based merely on your faith. And I already explained what I think about the biblical concept of sin.
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Yes it is based on my faith and my experience. God was not real to me fefore I was humbled to confess that I had indeed sinned against God.

The soiled conscience is like a smoke covered glass. If the window is black with soot no sunlight can get through. And if the God created human conscience has the guilt of sins upon it it prevents the rays of divine light from shinning through.

God is not real to people because of the unconfessed sins on their conscience. I know that you do not believe this. I am writing it in spite of the fact that you do not believe it. Someday you may remember and believe.

"No, Jehovah's hand is no tso short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy they it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isa. 59:1,2)

The day God became real to me was the day I had the deep conviction that I had sinned against God. But the Father was so willing to run to me and receive me with forgiveness because I called on the name of Jesus.

The existence of sins upon my conscience was the insulation which obscured the reality of God to me. Once a person brings those sins under the blood of Christ there is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

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edit: "Are you basing your understanding of the Christian faith on what you have read in the New Testament?"

I am not a Christian and I don't have the intention to deep in the "Christian experience";
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And it is also not your intention to understand it very well either then?


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one can have his spirituality without being Christian, and there 's no way to claim that the so called "deeper Christian experience" is different or superior than the deeper "Islam/ Hindu/ Judaist ect.
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Since none of them or niether of them have any effect on you, I suppose you will never know. That is until the last judgement when you come to know what the truth is.

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experience"; everybody can surely be a decent and not "sinful" citizen without being Christian, and alo obtain his spiriualism.
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You go and be decent and "spiritual". You do the best you can. Compared to the other person you may deem yourself not too bad.

You may live out your days a decent person in your own eyes. But eventually it is God who measures you according to what Christ is. You will fall short. He was not only sinless. He was glorious.

Are you glorious? Are you even sinless? You have a knowledge of good and evil. But often times you lack the power to perform the good that you know. And you often lack the power to resist the evil that you know.

Do not mistake your knowledge of good and evil for your ability to perform the good and resist the evil.

Even if you were to be perfect from this day forward you still have the iniquities of bygone days on your record. Christ is there to wipe the record completely clean as if you never sinned at all.
edit: "His death on the cross has three aspects to it:


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1.) Redemptive
2.) Terminative
3.) Germinative"

I know what for Christianism stands; those three aspects, as you admit you too right on, they took part just because the human race is considered sinful. But this is not logical at all, as I already stated earlier;
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The human race was meant to be united with God. In the fall the human race got united with the enemy of God, Satan. Man has become Satanified. The evil nature of Satan has been injected into his being like a parasite.

Man was meant to be mingled with God. Man got mingled instead with Satan the enemy of God.

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edit: "God doesn't want good Christians. He wants God Christians. That is to live in the Triune God as a living Person."

Maybe, my friend! But "gods'" administration in this planet are the priests,
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The New Testament teaches the priesthood of every believer.

I study the Bible carefully so as not to take human traditions for the truth if they are not.


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which from times to times they have a different than yours opinion depending on their hunger for social power, and they hesitate not to declare it, thus originating tenths of heresies from which each one claims that is the sole interpretor that knows exactly what is the will of the "god";
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And in the Age of Enlightenment the Bible was freed from its clerical prison and put into the hands of the common people.

Luther got fed up and nailed 90 objections to the door a great cathedral against the wrong and unscriptural practices of the clergy. And the Reformation started. It was at least a move back in the right direction.


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and the followers of each heresy have to cope with the main doctrine and the orders of that heresy if thy want to be "good Christians";
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None of the things you say make any difference really. Throughout church history there has always been a line of "overcomers" who rose to the normal Christian life.

You can point out problems all day long with priests, popes, clergy, laity, whatever you would like to hold up in angst. It makes no difference to those who are more than conquerors through living in Christ.

IF man's mistakes could have stopped God then the Bible would have concluded with Genesis chapter 3. The history of God is the history of Him branching over every conceivable kind of obstacle caused by the rebellion of man.

Your list of bad religious events is one sided, ignores the glorious aspects of the Christian church and most of all will not be able to stop God from accomplishing His will.

One thing that the Bible testifies is that He cannot be stopped. "The church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."


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Finally, I strongly disagree with your idea regarding the royal game. A strong player never wants to intimidate his opponent. In contrary, he constantly seeks for a strong opponent in order to share with him the very essence of chess. Just think how boring is to play against a much weaker player than yourself! The players that play for the reason you think, they act so this way in every aspect of their life due to their character and not because chess is a tool of manipulation;
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I could be wrong. However you easily refer to the "royal game" as if there has never been any cheating or shameful sportmanship or trickery or disputes.

Why then do you expect me to trash the Gospel because of some poor behavior of some religious people. Do you look around for cheaters to discourage you from playing chess well? Or do you look around for positive examples to encourage you?

So I am not hunting for those who will hurt my Christians faith. I am seeking those who will help my Christian faith. And thankfully down through the centries and even today there are many many such disciples of Christ.

Oh jaywill dude,

it's quite obvious that we disagree big time and that it's impossible to find a way out over this debate but that's fine with me🙂 everybody is unique and has his own opinions, and this 's wonderful: some centuries ago we could both end up like spare ribs on a BBQ if we tried to have our opinions public, you know🙂

I think that FHL clan, the clan that me, a miserable infidel, has joined in this site would be fine for you too -most of them guys are very kind Christians! Why don't you send an msg to our captain, oilman?!?

Greece is fine for a short or extended vacation; you are wellcome to my country anytime!

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
What exactly do you mean by authority? In the USA, people get authority by adhering to man-made rules; the citizens give people authority over them for a reason.

Does God have authority because he's obeying man-made rules?

No, He gets it by being the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
No, He gets it by being the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...

Hi Pink Floyd;

Ok. If "god" is Almighty he already knows the exact way that he will use in order to change the route of the history, and he will be able to act so because he is all powerful; but this means that "god" is unable to change his mind regarding this exact act of his, therefore he cannot be all powerful;

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
No, He gets it by being the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...

Hahahahahahahaha

Originally posted by black beetle
Hi Pink Floyd;

Ok. If "god" is Almighty he already knows the exact way that he will use in order to change the route of the history, and he will be able to act so because he is all powerful; but this means that "god" is unable to change his mind regarding this exact act of his, therefore he cannot be all powerful;

Hi black beetle - love the handle 🙂 If you define being unable to change one's mind as less than all-powerful, then you'd be right.