1. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 17:43
    I was inspired by something I read today and hence the question. Many religious leaders taught many things but first point none of them claimed to be God or the object of worship. Jesus made many claims and did many deeds that are only the prerogatives of God. He raised men from the dead and forgave sins. Fed 5000+ people and healed people and also told his disciples that He was headed for a Roman Cross. This fact has to be taken into account the Jewish people were monotheistic as they were taught through Moses and the law and commandants and rightfully so. The reaction of the Jewish religious leaders to Jesus deeds and statements also has to be taken into account. Why would they want to stone Jesus for making a statement about being "before Abraham was I am" ? And this statement in John 5:18 -- 18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. And John 5:39 -- 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. These are claims made by Jesus. John 8:56 --56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. Now it just goes on and on but why would they want to stone Jesus for such a statement ? No to mention Jesus at this point is either telling a very deep truth or he is indeed a Crazy man off of his Rocker !!!! And John 9 --- 35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains. -- Now we can argue about the words in the original language but what is this exchange all about ? Jesus does not condemn the man for worshiping him at all and Context is everything. Also when Jesus was questioned by Pilate he does not deny that he is indeed a King not of this realm ---- My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king.... AND this John 19 “Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.” or equal with His father

    Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar but the question remains

    Manny
  2. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 17:53
    Jesus
    *Walked on water and performed many miracles
    *Calmed storms
    *Raised people from the dead
    *Taught with authority
    *Forgave sins
    *Knew what others were thinking
    *Never held an official or title by human standards yet has caused more
    controversy over His nature and teachings than anyone else in history

    Manny
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Feb '14 17:57
    Inb4 the JW nonsense. 😀
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    09 Feb '14 18:00
    Personally, I tend to think that the arguments saying that the JC character is
    a separate being and not part of a triumvirate god make more sense and fit
    better with what is actually written in the bible.

    However, it's not my religion, I don't think either JC or god exist[ed], and I don't
    really care either way.

    *Never held an official or title by human standards yet has caused more
    controversy over His nature and teachings than anyone else in history


    A majority of people in the world, both today and in history are not Christians.
    I am not sure that this is actually true.
    Also, if as is likely, he didn't actually exist. Then the cause of controversy was the
    people who made him up, and not JC himself.
  5. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:06
    I know my JW's are coming so yes I looked at the word Prosku and the meaning is this .........


    Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardProskuneo
    Proskuneo

    The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Strong's Number: 4352
    Original Word Word Origin
    proskuneo from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Proskuneo 6:758,948
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    pros-koo-neh'-o Verb
    Definition

    to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
    among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
    in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
    used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
    to the Jewish high priests
    to God
    to Christ
    to heavenly beings
    to demons


    NAS Word Usage - Total: 60
    bow down 1, bow down before 1, bowed down 1, bowed down before 2, bowing before 1, bowing down 1, prostrated himself before 1, worship 32, worshiped 17, worshipers 1, worshiping 1, worships 1

    Manny
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Feb '14 18:111 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    I know my JW's are coming so yes I looked at the word Prosku and the meaning is this .........


    Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardProskuneo
    Proskuneo

    The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Strong's Number: 4352
    Original Word Word Origin
    proskuneo from (4314) and ...[text shortened]... ated himself before 1, worship 32, worshiped 17, worshipers 1, worshiping 1, worships 1

    Manny
    Even the NWT translates the SAME Greek word to worship when it is NOT speaking of Jesus. Never when speaking of Jesus. Dogma-oriented translation differences. Ergo, their dogma drives their translation. QED.
  7. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:112 edits
    So you do not believe that I'll use your word 😉 that JC was even a historical person that lived ? Interesting no doubt but what do you base that on ? I believe at very minimum he was at least a person who lived in Judea 2000+ years ago there is enough to prove that I think. Historical authors such as Josephus references JC and just the fact that a religion exist ( good or bad) that claims JC's name would be some sort of evidence that JC lived

    Manny
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Feb '14 18:14
    Originally posted by menace71
    So you do not believe that I'll use your word 😉 that JC was even a historical person that lived ? Interesting no doubt but what do you base that on ? I believe at very minimum he was at least a person who lived in Judea 2000+ years ago there is enough to prove that I think. Historical authors such as Josephus references JC and just the fact that a religio ...[text shortened]... xist ( good or bad) that claims JC's name would be some sort of evidence that JC lived

    Manny
    Doubt is the atheists' stock in trade, Manny.
  9. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:20
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Even the NWT translates the SAME Greek word to worship when it is NOT speaking of Jesus. Never when speaking of Jesus. Dogma-oriented translation differences. Ergo, their dogma drives their translation. QED.
    Well the meaning of the word does not actually help the JW's case.......in Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures ; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God......That word worshiped there in the last sentence is "Proskuneo" once again context,context,context !!!

    Manny
  10. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:291 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Doubt is the atheists' stock in trade, Manny.
    I think many atheist are sincere doubters .....Not just doubting because they don't like JC 😉 or something.......Its only a problem when they will not look at history and facts and weigh these things out to see if they be true or not. It does not help that many whack Jobs make it hard for atheist to believe even if they might want to. I will say this though to believe it is truly the work of God because until God turns on the light bulb all intellect all reasoning anything of this world will not make one believe. I remember not believing

    Manny
  11. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:30
    I believe God loves doubters 🙂


    Manny
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Feb '14 18:331 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    Well the meaning of the word does not actually help the JW's case.......in Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures ; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God......That word worshiped there in the last sentence is "Proskuneo" once again context,context,context !!!

    Manny
    yes, exactly, it's not rocket science.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    09 Feb '14 18:42
    Originally posted by menace71
    I think many atheist are sincere doubters .....Not just doubting because they don't like JC 😉 or something.......Its only a problem when they will not look at history and facts and weigh these things out to see if they be true or not. It does not help that many whack Jobs make it hard for atheist to believe even if they might want to. I will say this thou ...[text shortened]... l reasoning anything of this world will not make one believe. I remember not believing

    Manny
    I agree with you maybe 90+% of the time, Manny.

    Keep on keepin' on. 🙂
  14. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Feb '14 18:45
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I agree with you maybe 90+% of the time, Manny.

    Keep on keepin' on. 🙂
    Except that Michael can indeed by Jesus right ? 😉


    Manny
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    09 Feb '14 18:59
    Originally posted by menace71
    I was inspired by something I read today and hence the question. Many religious leaders taught many things but first point none of them claimed to be God or the object of worship. Jesus made many claims and did many deeds that are only the prerogatives of God. He raised men from the dead and forgave sins. Fed 5000+ people and healed people and also told his ...[text shortened]... .He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar but the question remains

    Manny
    Read the first 3 gospels without John (the last one written) and you'll find that Jesus does not sound as divine in them.

    My theory is that the divinity angle was added later after Jesus' kingdom on earth failed to pan out.
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