Was Jesus God ?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Read the first 3 gospels without John (the last one written) and you'll find that Jesus does not sound as divine in them.

My theory is that the divinity angle was added later after Jesus' kingdom on earth failed to pan out.

Read them all and agreed that John is indeed the one who reveals that side of Jesus his divinity the most but this is not a mistake at all.


Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Except that Michael can indeed by Jesus right ? 😉


Manny

ummmm, no. I understand you said there might be a scriptural basis for maybe believing that, but I'm not buying it for a second, and I think neither are you.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Inb4 the JW nonsense. 😀

After your nonsense.

Check your immediate reaction to the these 3 words above, Christians. What results do you expect when you call someone else's cherished beliefs nonsense? I guess I hope at least they are what you expect. OTOH, what is your reaction when one of your fellows ridicules your common adversary?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Read the first 3 gospels without John (the last one written) and you'll find that Jesus does not sound as divine in them.

My theory is that the divinity angle was added later after Jesus' kingdom on earth failed to pan out.

Well, Jesus' first job (ok, not career, I mean in the sense of mission) here on Earth was referenced when they called Him Rabbi, or teacher.

Even when He rose from the dead, Thomas didn't believe it. And their relationship with Him was as a disciple, a follower. What if you heard rumor that your church leader was the Son of God? There would be skepticism. At least they had access to a lot of what He said, they could piece it together and verify it for themselves, of course the 40 days or whatever it was after His death and before His ascension was probably a big clue, too. It probably wasn't widely accepted, even by most of the disciples early on in His preaching days. Once He started with the miracles, though, that got peoples' attention.

Originally posted by menace71
I was inspired by something I read today and hence the question. Many religious leaders taught many things but first point none of them claimed to be God or the object of worship. Jesus made many claims and did many deeds that are only the prerogatives of God. He raised men from the dead and forgave sins. Fed 5000+ people and healed people and also told his ...[text shortened]... .He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar but the question remains

Manny

Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar

Actually if one considers the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth on the whole and given His extensive use of metaphor, a strong case can be made for Jesus not necessarily having viewed Himself as God.

Originally posted by JS357
After your nonsense.

Check your immediate reaction to the these 3 words above, Christians. What results do you expect when you call someone else's cherished beliefs nonsense? I guess I hope at least they are what you expect. OTOH, what is your reaction when one of your fellows ridicules your common adversary?

I think that when someone starts spouting their totally contrary views as fact, and then when asked why they believe this, they launch into a completely fabricated story they heard from some church leader somewhere about their "true scripture" and in backing it up from scripture they get the entire concept not just wrong, but laughingly wrong, I'm not likely to believe it when they say it will rain tomorrow, not to mention anything else, and yeah, I'm going to ridicule them as false prophets when they continue trying to deceive people into anti-scripture concepts that endanger not just their salvation, but that of everyone who follows them.

And it's not like the atheists here give a damn. They don't have a horse in this race. All they want is to introduce their doubt nodules into everyone's religion to disempower their faith. ALL faith. If it's me this week, it's them next week, so what's the difference to you?

I started off saying this as a joke, because all the regulars here KNOW the JWs don't think Jesus is God. But that's not good enough for you, you want to stir it up again, maybe until there's blood, I dunno, what would satisfy you? Oh, wait, it's an internet forum, of course. You want to wear the white hats.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar

Actually if one considers the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth on the whole and given His extensive use of metaphor, a strong case can be made for Jesus not necessarily having viewed Himself as God.[/b]

Of course. But if the man was without sin, would He have been vain? No, of course not. So His modesty kept Him from making statements that could be taken that way until near the end. He was human, too, after all.

Edit: Sigh. For the grognards, what I mean here is that He would experience modesty as a human would, and make statements like this: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Originally posted by Suzianne
Of course. But if the man was without sin, would He have been vain? No, of course not. So His modesty kept Him from making statements that could be taken that way until near the end. He was human, too, after all.

Can you expand on what you mean here? I don't understand what you're trying to convey.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar

Actually if one considers the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth on the whole and given His extensive use of metaphor, a strong case can be made for Jesus not necessarily having viewed Himself as God.[/b]

I would challenge you on that if we look at the words attributed to Jesus ...He says things like "Come to me all who are weary and Heavy laden" And "Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life" There are so many instances of Jesus saying these kinds of things that these are either true statements or those of a madman .....Buddha never said things like this or Confucius or even Mohamed.......

Manny

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can you expand on what you mean here? I don't understand what you're trying to convey.

While I was typing my edit, you posted this. I was not speaking of you, but to those who would attempt to twist my statement that "He was human, too, after all."

Originally posted by menace71
So you do not believe that I'll use your word 😉 that JC was even a historical person that lived ? Interesting no doubt but what do you base that on ? I believe at very minimum he was at least a person who lived in Judea 2000+ years ago there is enough to prove that I think. Historical authors such as Josephus references JC and just the fact that a religio ...[text shortened]... xist ( good or bad) that claims JC's name would be some sort of evidence that JC lived

Manny

I think most atheist, who have really studied this matter, admit that an historical person called Christ existed. But they believe all the miracles and whatever attributed to him are mere legends and untrue tales and the New Testament Jesus as shown there did not really exist. It is ridiculous to them that someone could have risen from the dead.

Originally posted by menace71
I would challenge you on that if we look at the words attributed to Jesus ...He says things like "Come to me all who are weary and Heavy laden" And "Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life" There are so many instances of Jesus saying these kinds of things that these are either true statements or those of a madman .....Buddha never said things like this or Confucius or even Mohamed.......

Manny

Not to mention things like raising the dead, or absolving sin.

To Atheist at times all they see is different sects of the same religion fighting about words or doctrine (this is not to say it is not important) but I can see where it just gives them more ammo to wage against people of faith.


Manny

Originally posted by menace71
To Atheist at times all they see is different sects of the same religion fighting about words or doctrine (this is not to say it is not important) but I can see where it just gives them more ammo to wage against people of faith.


Manny

I agree. Unfortunately, this is so.

I think what is very silly is the Jesus movement where they say lets let beads represent what Jesus really said and what he did not say and well that's real logical and scientific


Manny