Was Jesus God ?

Originally posted by JS357
After your nonsense.

Check your immediate reaction to the these 3 words above, Christians. What results do you expect when you call someone else's cherished beliefs nonsense? I guess I hope at least they are what you expect. OTOH, what is your reaction when one of your fellows ridicules your common adversary?

Oh come on, why so starchy.

If I were a betting person I would wager a huge amount that none of the atheists here will ever state that biblical scripture supports the view that Jesus was in fact deity (them approaching if from a pure academic viewpoint of course).

Originally posted by menace71
I think what is very silly is the Jesus movement where they say lets let beads represent what Jesus really said and what he did not say and well that's real logical and scientific


Manny

I'm not familiar with this. Can you explain further?

Originally posted by divegeester
If I were a betting person I would wager a huge amount that none of the atheists here will ever state that biblical scripture supports the view that Jesus was in fact deity (them approaching if from a pure academic viewpoint of course).

GB actually wrote something about this. He gave a multitude (no other word suffices) of verses supporting the 'Jesus is God' concept. I read it just the other day.

I'm mixing these guys up with another movement I'll give ya the details but part of their system was basically very similar to rolling dice to decide what Jesus actually said and did not say so basically by mere chance they decide what Jesus did and did not say

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I know my JW's are coming so yes I looked at the word Prosku and the meaning is this .........


Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardProskuneo
Proskuneo

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4352
Original Word Word Origin
proskuneo from (4314) and ...[text shortened]... ated himself before 1, worship 32, worshiped 17, worshipers 1, worshiping 1, worships 1

Manny

Nope not coming in here. I said I wouldn't when someone mentioned about a thread on this and I said I'd keep out.
Robbie and myself have said all we can say on this so the floor is yours...

Originally posted by menace71
I would challenge you on that if we look at the words attributed to Jesus ...He says things like "Come to me all who are weary and Heavy laden" And "Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life" There are so many instances of Jesus saying these kinds of things that these are either true statements or those of a madman .....Buddha never said things like this or Confucius or even Mohamed.......

Manny

He says things like "Come to me all who are weary and Heavy laden" And "Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life"

How does "Come to me all who are weary and Heavy laden" show that Jesus necessarily viewed Himself as God?

How does ""Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life" show that Jesus necessarily viewed Himself as God? Also, if you are referring John 3:16, there is question as to whether those words are correctly attributed to Jesus or to the writer of The Book of John. Look at the translations shown here: http://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm. Some attribute the words to Jesus, some to the writer of John, some do not give attribution.

Originally posted by Suzianne
While I was typing my edit, you posted this. I was not speaking of you, but to those who would attempt to twist my statement that "He was human, too, after all."

Does this mean you do not agree with Manny's assertion?:
"Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Does this mean you do not agree with Manny's assertion?:
"Jesus does not allow for the conclusion that He was just a good or great moral teacher .....He was either telling the truth or a madman or straight liar"

Eh, right on cue.

No, did I say I didn't agree?

I say He (Jesus) was telling the truth, so yeah, I guess I agree. As for the first part, it's opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, I haven't thought about it much in those exact terms.

Originally posted by menace71
I'm mixing these guys up with another movement I'll give ya the details but part of their system was basically very similar to rolling dice to decide what Jesus actually said and did not say so basically by mere chance they decide what Jesus did and did not say

Manny

Seems random. /shrug

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How does ""Believe in me and you will not die but have eternal life" show that Jesus necessarily viewed Himself as God? Also, if you are referring John 3:16, there is question as to whether those words are correctly attributed to Jesus or to the writer of The Book of John. Look at the translations shown here: http://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm. Some attribute the words to Jesus, some to the writer of John, some do not give attribution.

Does the text *say* Jesus said this or not?

Since it does, back in John 3:10 ("Jesus answered and said unto him," ), and continuing through John 3:21, those words are probably best attributed to Jesus. I do not see where, in the link you provided, there is any question who spoke those words.



And btw, since we're on the subject of John 3, examine this:

Here is the KJV of John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
And here is the 2013 NWT version: "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Notice the missing "which is in heaven." More dogma-induced scripture, word gymnastics so they can claim Jesus is not divine and man at the same time.

Originally posted by menace71
Read them all and agreed that John is indeed the one who reveals that side of Jesus his divinity the most but this is not a mistake at all.


Manny

"Mistake" is not the right word. Think more of "repackaging".

It was brilliant, actually. First, they make the Messianic prophecy come true - one of the downfalls of prophecy is that everyone knows what is supposed to happen, so you just find someone who fits the details closely enough and force the small stuff.

Then he gets killed unexpectedly. All of his followers are left wondering what to do; particularly the leadership, as this has been their livelihood for years now, and Jesus is gone.

So they change the story. He was divine. He came back to life after 3 days and ascended to heaven. No longer was he a mere preacher who pissed off the establishment and foretold a Kingdom coming on this earth; he was now the Son of God, sent from heaven as the perfect sacrificial lamb, sent to atone for every human's sins.

It was an ingenious co-opting of the Judaic narrative. So ingenious that we're still talking about it 2000 years later.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
"Mistake" is not the right word. Think more of "repackaging".

It was brilliant, actually. First, they make the Messianic prophecy come true - one of the downfalls of prophecy is that everyone knows what is supposed to happen, so you just find someone who fits the details closely enough and force the small stuff.

Then he gets killed unexpectedly. Al ...[text shortened]... opting of the Judaic narrative. So ingenious that we're still talking about it 2000 years later.

You've probably read "who moved the stone" by Henry Ross, a lawyer who set out with one intention but ended up with another perspective. If you've not read it you may find it interesting. It's available at amazon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Henry_Ross

Originally posted by Suzianne
Does the text *say* Jesus said this or not?

Since it does, back in John 3:10 ("Jesus answered and said unto him," ), and continuing through John 3:21, those words are probably best attributed to Jesus. I do not see where, in the link you provided, there is any question who spoke those words.



And btw, since we're on the subject of John 3, examine ...[text shortened]... duced scripture, word gymnastics so they can claim Jesus is not divine and man at the same time.

Does the text *say* Jesus said this or not?

No it doesn't. The original Greek does not include any punctuation whatsoever (including quotation marks), so it's unclear as to where Jesus stops talking.

I do not see where, in the link you provided, there is any question who spoke those words.

Click on the New International Version for one where the words are attributed to the writer of John. Click on the King James Bible for one where the words are unattributed.

Here's one take on this issue:

Submitted by Darrell L. Bock on Wed, 01/13/2010 - 00:00

This entry is in response to a question I received today from Steny. Here it is: Dear Dr. Bock,can you explain why various translations of the Bible differ on whether John 3:16 is a direct quote of Jesus or a comment of the narrator of the Gospel?many thanks. GBU.The answer is that there is a judgment about where Jesus words stop in John 3 as he is dialoging with Nicodemus. (Sometimes editors determine the red in red letter Bibles to say where Jesus is speaking, rather than the speaker being clearly named in the text.) Some go as far with Jesus speaking as 3:21. However the phrasing in v 16-- "one and only Son" [also in v 18] -- is more Johannine than the language of Jesus (see John 1:14, 18). Jesu speaks of himself as simply the Son in John (e.g, John 5:19) or as Son of Man (vv 13-14). The light-darkness contrast later in the unit also fits in this category. So it is likely John 3:16-21 are the comments of John on the significance of what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

http://blogs.bible.org/node/487

Here's the biography of the writer of the above:

First Name
Darrell L.
Last Name
Bock
Biography
Darrell L. Bock is Senior Research Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, where he has taught since 1982. He also is Executive Director of Cultural Engagement at the Center for Christian Leadership at the Seminary. You can see his blog here.
His doctoral degree is from the University of Aberdeen (Scotland) and as a Humboldt scholar he was a guest researcher at the University of Tubingen in Germany in 1995-96. He is a Past President of the Evangelical Theological Society (2000-2001) and has written a major commentary on Luke, as well as having served as a translation consultant on various translations of the New Testament. He is editor-at-large for Christianity Today and is an author of over 30 books, including one as a New York Times best seller.

Pasted from <http://blogs.bible.org/user/12>

And here is the 2013 NWT version

I'm sure you can go on all day about the JW translation - and rightly so.

The consensus of scripture is that Jesus is the Son of God and the son of man. That is, Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily. So when Jesus died in the flesh God also died.

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ in chapter 1 verse 8 John hears,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

John goes on to explain,

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Revelation 1:10-11 NKJV)

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

(Revelation 1:17-18 NKJV)

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

(Revelation 2:8 NKJV)

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

(Revelation 22:12-13 NKJV)