We are all Atheists

Originally posted by knightmeister
"The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in "

CS LEWIS

"The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in "

CS LEWIS
Only true if the claim is we disbelieve in only one God...substitute "a" for "the" and that statement is false.

Originally posted by Agerg
My problem with "atheist" as I've said, is that unless preaching to the choir (as it were); it isn't the best choice of word without a supplementary description of what it is you actually mean by it.

And I still maintain that the whole point of it was to be initially misunderstood and thus shock a theist, and then the next two sentences explain the intended meaning and thus demonstrate to the theist, that his natural bias against athiests is misplaced as he should theoretically have equal bias against himself with respect to any religion other than his own.
It further achieves the goal of pointing out that everyone, theist and athiest alike, have perfectly valid reasons for not believing in certain gods, so the popular theist attitude of assuming "belief by default" to be the correct position is fundamentally flawed.

If there must be a supplementary description, it should come afterwards, not before.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]the quote is equivalent to "Mary has apples. George has apples. Mary has 1 apple, George has 1 apple less."
I don't think it is.

The membership criterion for being an "atheist" depends not on what you have, but on what you don't have (belief in gods). Your quote is indeed somewhat nonsensical but it has little bearing on the OP.

Better wo ...[text shortened]... e of word without a supplementary description of what it is you actually mean by it.[/b]

it is pretty much the same thing. sure i am not comfortable with viewing christians and muslims as people who have rejected every religion but christianity and islam respectively. but you are right, you can define them like thought, though a bit awkward. like defining 1 not as 1 but as the result of removing 99 objects from 100.
that however is not the issue.

the issue is that atheism remains the rejection of all supreme beings, emphasis on all. once you start believing in something "godly" you are no longer an atheist. that is why i take offense in the claim that believers are simply atheists that need to take several more steps towards enligthment. as if atheism is the only logical outcome of reason.

sure the author is throwing a swing at believers by calling them deluded fools. but it is supposed to be funny, not a display of awesome wisdom as some posters have suggested. and certainly not a clever use of the word "atheist"

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]"The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in "

CS LEWIS
Only true if the claim is we disbelieve in only one God...substitute "a" for "the" and that statement is false.[/b]

"The God I believe in is not one of the gods you don't believe in "

there, it is fixed

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I still maintain that the whole point of it was to be initially misunderstood and thus shock a theist, and then the next two sentences explain the intended meaning and thus demonstrate to the theist, that his natural bias against athiests is misplaced as he should theoretically have equal bias against himself with respect to any religion other than hi ...[text shortened]... lawed.

If there must be a supplementary description, it should come afterwards, not before.

If the intention was that it be first misunderstood with the intention of clarifying the issue later then fair enough.

can we call this one settled?

🙂

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"The God I believe in is not one of the gods you don't believe in "

there, it is fixed

I disagree...you name me a god, or conceptualize a god privately in your head and my default stance is that I don't believe in it.

🙂

Originally posted by Agerg
can we call this one settled?

🙂

Sure.

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree...you name me a god, or conceptualize a god privately in your head and my default stance is that I don't believe in it.

🙂

and i will say that you don't allow yourself to know and understand that god therefore you don't believe in a gimped version of my god, a different version.

it is forced logic but much more reasonable than the "christians are bad atheists" quote.

Originally posted by 667joe
I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Henry Roberts

I believe in one more higher being than you do.

Originally posted by jaywill
I believe in one more higher being than you do.

What level do Angels and Demons come in?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
and i will say that you don't allow yourself to know and understand that god therefore you don't believe in a gimped version of my god, a different version.

it is forced logic but much more reasonable than the "christians are bad atheists" quote.

But again...you may dream up any god you like and my default position is lack of belief. That applies to both caricatures and correct formulations of your god.

That lack of belief will decrease only with valid evidence or an argument which would compel me to accept as true something even more absurd if I maintain such disbelief.

I have seen no such evidence or argument.

Originally posted by Agerg
But again...you may dream up any god you like and my default position is lack of belief. That applies to both caricatures and correct formulations of your god.

That lack of belief will decrease only with valid evidence or an argument which would compel me to accept as true something even more absurd if I maintain such disbelief.

I have seen no such evidence or argument.

are you married? actually nevermind that, for the sake of this argument, you are married. mazel tov.

do you know he/she loves you? regardless of the answer, how do you know? could it be how he/she looks at you? the flowers from last month? the way she spices the lasagna just the way you like it? these are all nice but certainly they are not proofs. not in a "light travels at x km/h" way. maybe they are subterfuges to get your 1 million dollar fortune. maybe it is a fear of being along and she is settling for you. maybe she does love you. you don't know for sure. yet you have faith. you believe she loves you and that makes you happy.

then why is religion so absurd to atheists?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you don't know for sure. yet you have faith. you believe she loves you and that makes you happy.

then why is religion so absurd to atheists?

Because there is a fairly good chance that she does love me? The question then is, if I know deep down that she doesn't and I deliberately delude myself into believing she does, then is that how I want to live? Does it make sense for me to preach the good word about her love to others? Should I kill others who don't accept that she loves me? Should I admit to others that I am deluded?

Is religion to you a deliberate self delusion to keep yourself happy? Do you think others see it that way?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Because there is a fairly good chance that she does love me? The question then is, if I know deep down that she doesn't and I deliberately delude myself into believing she does, then is that how I want to live? Does it make sense for me to preach the good word about her love to others? Should I kill others who don't accept that she loves me? Should I admi ...[text shortened]... to you a deliberate self delusion to keep yourself happy? Do you think others see it that way?

there is a fairly good chance that god exists as well. the point i am trying to make is that you will never know for sure if she loves you or not. it is subjective. but as long as you are happy, you will keep believing in her love. now, if you give all your possesions to her and start killing in her name we might have a problem.

you assume i know deep down inside me that god doesn't exist. you are wrong. some doubt comes up from time to time but it goes away. i am sure god exists. but if he really doesn't, who cares?

yes, it does sense to preach the good news to others. if you see there is a sale at a store, would you not call some friends and let them in on the good news?

the killing part leads us to the realm of bad religion. good religion is only the love part. killing is the stuff man made up to get some stuff done.

you keep circling the deluded part of religion. why is that? why are you so sure i am deluded? why can't you be the one deluded? the fact that you refuse to believe in somthing not proven is your choice, just as i choose to believe in something not disproven. i will never ask god to magically replace a failing organ, i will go have a transplant.

i am getting annoyed at how atheists think themselves superior to the poor religious sheep. you yell at us for making a leap of faith and believing in god, but you fail to notice how you make leaps of faith all the time. how does that make you better than me?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
there is a fairly good chance that god exists as well.

No there isn't. Which is a large part of why religion seems so absurd to atheists.

but as long as you are happy, you will keep believing in her love.
Not necessarily. Most of us have doubts from time to time, and if we have any suspicions we sometimes prefer to know the truth than continue deluding ourselves.

you assume i know deep down inside me that god doesn't exist.
No I did not.

i am sure god exists. but if he really doesn't, who cares?
I do. Many people do. The fact that you don't seem to is itself rather troubling.

yes, it does sense to preach the good news to others. if you see there is a sale at a store, would you not call some friends and let them in on the good news?
If the sale is genuine, maybe. But I fail to see the connection. Why would you want to preach the good news of the efficacy of self delusion?

the killing part leads us to the realm of bad religion. good religion is only the love part. killing is the stuff man made up to get some stuff done.
So who made up the loving part and why?

you keep circling the deluded part of religion. why is that? why are you so sure i am deluded?
Because you implied it. You certainly implied that you would rather be deluded than not, if God does not exist.

the fact that you refuse to believe in somthing not proven is your choice,
No, it is not so much choice as common sense.

just as i choose to believe in something not disproven.
Choosing to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is the definition of self delusion.

i will never ask god to magically replace a failing organ, i will go have a transplant.
Why? Surely that is an admission that it is a delusion? You are essentially saying you have no faith.

i am getting annoyed at how atheists think themselves superior to the poor religious sheep.
Superior? In what way?

you yell at us for making a leap of faith and believing in god, but you fail to notice how you make leaps of faith all the time. how does that make you better than me?
Can you specify where I make leaps of faith? I think I can explain the difference between your leaps and mine. I don't think it makes me better than you, but I still think your leaps are wrong.