We are all Atheists

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]"The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in "

CS LEWIS
Only true if the claim is we disbelieve in only one God...substitute "a" for "the" and that statement is false.[/b]

I think Lewis' statement still has some punch, in the sense that those who claim a disbelief in God typically have their 'reasons.' Case in point, twhitehead is constantly pointing to a supposed lack of justice as one of his reasons for disbelief.

In Lewis' iteration, he would stress that the deficiencies alleged are either non-existent, or--- at best--- being viewed incorrectly. In the lack of justice scenario, the scale of values are skewed: bottom up instead of top down. Once priority is restored, the 'right' God comes back into the viewfinder and we are back on the right topic.

Lewis' statement is essentially saying that once we have the right God under scrutiny, His truth overwhelms any of our objections. Until He is actually in view, our objections are directed toward something He is not; our dismissals are for other gods, not Him.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No there isn't. Which is a large part of why religion seems so absurd to atheists.

[b] but as long as you are happy, you will keep believing in her love.
Not necessarily. Most of us have doubts from time to time, and if we have any suspicions we sometimes prefer to know the truth than continue deluding ourselves.

you assume i know deep down ...[text shortened]... nd mine. I don't think it makes me better than you, but I still think your leaps are wrong.

i disagree. i believe god exists. you believe he doesn't. neither of us has any proof. who is right? you are gonna play the "infinite number of possible entities thus probability is almost 0?" card? there are many things that probability says they can't exist yet they do. you put too much stock in probability.

"prefer to know the truth"
but you don't know the truth. and you can't find it. you have to believe in one or another. you chose the not believe in god one. good for you. that doesn't make you better than me.

"No I did not."
that's what it sounded like

who cares?
I do. Many people do.
sorry, i should have phrased it like "why care?". what benefit does knowing if there is a god or not brings you. you wont be able to make an atheist TV then, your stocks in Atheism Inc won't go up. Many people teach their children that santa is real. and they don't tell them it's not until the kid freezes on the roof waiting for santa or when they are old enough to buy presents themselves. there are a lot of lies that are better than the truth. there are a lot of truths that are absolutely useless. Why care?


self delusion?
for the sake of this argument you are married. does your wife love you? how do you know? what proof do you have? does proof of love even exist?
please don't call my system of beliefs delusional so long you don't believe you suffer from the same delusion in thinking your wife loves you.

"So who made up the loving part and why?"
god. humans. humans inspired by god. we can enter a debate about the nature of love if you wish

Because you implied it. You certainly implied that you would rather be deluded than not, if God does not exist.
no, i didn't phrase it like that. i expressed annoyance at how atheists call theists delusional when we all delude ourselves. in what way you believing you are loved by your wife, or thinking your boss apreciates you, or thinking superstring theory has merits(it has but we didn't proved it ) or thinking the LHC won't kill us all is in any
better than me believing in a higher power that loves us, that there might be more to life than simply a blip in corner of the universe?

and yes, should someone be with UNDENIABLE proof that god is or isn't, i would listen to that proof and readjust my philosophy, even if i would be proven wrong, even if i would go from a state of happines to less happines.
but we don't know. god may not exist. but so long that isn't proven, the religious state is prefferable to the atheist state. one gives some benefits, the other gives nothing.

No, it is not so much choice as common sense.
you were right, i was mistaken. this isn't in any way condescending. you are in no way feeling superior to me.
what is common sense anyway? rednecks and KKK lynched blacks a while back, it was very common sense around those parts. there was some common sense in nazi germany, not so common now.
also there are quite a lot theists out there and quite a few atheists. it seems your common sense is not our common sense.

Choosing to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is the definition of self delusion.
or optimism. or research. if einstein wouldn't have believed in what he was doing he would have got some icecream instead.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I think Lewis' statement still has some punch, in the sense that those who claim a disbelief in God typically have their 'reasons.' Case in point, twhitehead is constantly pointing to a supposed lack of justice as one of his reasons for disbelief.

I generally agree. In general, my most definite disbelief is based on claims I find either illogical or simply preposterous. But I also hold a general skepticism towards all claims I have not yet heard and I would count that as disbelief even though it is generally not what you might call active disbelief. So I would say I do not by default believe in C.S. Lewis' god, even though I may have no idea what his concept of god was.
However, we must also realize that the claim is often used when it is not valid, ie someone will essentially use the excuse "you don't know what I am talking about" when someone else has shown a logical inconsistency or other problem with his claims. This behavior is of course not exclusive to theists, nor the subject of religion.

Originally posted by 667joe
I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Henry Roberts

That doesn't make us both atheists it means that you (he) is an atheist and I believe in God

Originally posted by 667joe
I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Henry Roberts

speak for yourself
Kelly

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I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
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And again, I believe in at least one more higher being than you do.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I think Lewis' statement still has some punch, in the sense that those who claim a disbelief in God typically have their 'reasons.' Case in point, twhitehead is constantly pointing to a supposed lack of justice as one of his reasons for disbelief..

In fact, of course, the atheist position is as much a statement of faith as the believer, so you might equally say that those who feel able to believe one way or the other have their 'reasons'. It appears that the only logical choice is to believe nothing and question everything. But I could be wrong pending evidence to the contrary.