What becomes of 4-D spacetime after...

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Some Bible believers would say Genesis 1:27 is talking about man being the moral image of the Creator, not the three-dimensional shape (head/trunk/limbs/digits) that you are talking about.

I believe that is the correct understanding ......created in God's image in the sense of moral likeness ...as God is a spirit in His true essence not a humanoid


Manny

I always believed the New Jerusalem would be the city where God chooses to dwell in the new heavens and earth but the time stuff is where I believe our minds get messed up on as linear beings we struggle with a concept of no time at all

Manny

Originally posted by sonship
... This tabernacle will also be the eternal dwelling place of God's redeemed people. God will overshadow us with Christ ... Hence, the New Jerusalem will be a mutual habitation for both God and us. [/quote]

Calling Sonship ...

The New Jerusalem is THE DWELLING PLACE FOR GOD AND THE SAINTS.

The New Jerusalem is NOT the people /church as you claim.

It is the dwelling place of the people with God.

The New Jerusalem is the same as the seven golden lampstands in Revelation 2 and 3, yet in final universal consummation. She is a final "lampstand" in a universal sense. That is a golden mountain city in symbolism shining forth Christ and His transformed and deified saints from all ages.

"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Footnote 2(1) on Revelation 21:1: [Recovery Version Bible], my bolding

The New Jerusalem is a living composition of all the saints redeemed by God throughout all the generations. It is the bride of Christ as His counterpart (John 3:29) and the holy city of God as His habitation, His tabernacle (v.3). This is the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22), which God has prepared for us and which Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob long after (Heb. 11:10, 16). This is also the Jerusalem which is above and which is our mother (Gal.4:26). As the bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem comes out of Christ, her Husband, and becomes His counterpart, just as Eve came out of Adam, her husband, and became his counterpart (Gen. 2:21-24). She is prepared by participating in the riches of the life and nature of Christ. As the holy city of God, she is wholly sanctified unto God and fully saturated with God's holy nature to be His habitation.

If you are a regenerated believer in Christ you WILL be part of this New Jerusalem.

If you are saved and do not realize it somehow, you WILL be part of this New Jerusalem.

If anyone reading this is already a Christian she or he has a destiny and destination in New Jerusalem.

Among some of the believers participating Grampy Bobby, RJHinds, FreakyKBH, Suzzanne, RBHILL, myself (sonship) and others whom we may know or do not know, but are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We are all a part of that New Jerusalem. And our destiny is that holy city. There may be some who are saved by regeneration and are unclear about this. They too have New Jerusalem as their destiny.

There may be some believers in Christ who are backslidden. If they ever were regenerated they have no choice but also be a part eventually of the New Jerusalem. Don't worry about it. They may lose the kingdom reward but they will not lose the blessings of eternity in New Jerusalem.

If you genuinely were regenerated at one time and received the Spirit of Jesus Christ and are presently in some deep controversy against your heavenly Father and even speak like you have renounced the faith, you have no choice. You too have your destiny in New Jerusalem after God is finished dealing with you. He has a lot of time to do that.

If you have in ways unknown to any of us, received Christ somehow into your innermost spirit, you will be a part of that New Jerusalem.

Whether known by Christians or not known by Christians - God KNOWS those who have received His Spirit. Their destiny is New Jerusalem.

If some unbeliever receives Jesus today, or tomorrow, or next month, or in coming years they too will be a part of the New Jerusalem.

So when you read Revelation 21 and 22 and you are a saved person, you are definitely reading about yourself one day. When John says that he saw the New Jerusalem it means that he saw every saved person there.

Footenote 21(1) [Recovery Version Bible] on Revelation 21:1 continued, my bolding:

In both the Old Testament and the New Testament, God likens His chosen people to a spouse (Isa. 54:6; Jer. 3:1; Ezek. 16:8; Hosea 2:19; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:31-32) and a dwelling place for Himself (Exo. 29:45; Num. 5:3; Ezek. 43:7,9; Psa. 68:18; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Tim. 3:15). The spouse is for His satisfaction in love, and the dwelling place is for His rest in expression. Both of these aspects will be ultimately consummated in the New Jerusalem. In her, God will have the fullest satisfaction in love and the utmost rest in expression for eternity.

Originally posted by sonship

A man took his dog for a walk on the street.

Do you need a another statement which says :

The man is separate from his dog, which is separate from the street?

Look pal you continue preaching the Council of Whatever Doctrine. It makes no sense to anyone but yourself .. good luck. Continue on ...

I don't think I should dignify you ...[text shortened]... o dignify Rajk999's failure to provide any substantiating passage to his complaint with a reply.

I have trouble completely understand Revelations and I don't know if New Jerusalem is a literal city or if it represents something else. I'll just leave that speculation alone at this time.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have trouble completely understand Revelations and I don't know if New Jerusalem is a literal city or if it represents something else. I'll just leave that speculation alone at this time.

I understand. And you are by no means alone in this.

It is wise to put some difficult things on the back burner until another time.
But there is a blessing in reading and reading aloud the book of Revelation (Rev. 1:3).

I encourage you to READ the book of Revelation. More than any other book (for now) you have to have mastery of all the facts and details before it can be understood well. Reading it will help you master all the facts and details in addition to causing you to be blessed by the Holy Spirit.

I began to read the book of Revelation in spite of my perplexity, around 1970, 1971 time frame. I didn't get much help in it of any real value until 1978 when Witness Lee gave two ten day extended training sessions of Revelation.

Many of the footnotes explaining line by line every passage in the entire book are incorporated in the Recovery Version New Testament. I am using many of those notes in this thread.

You may obtain a free version of the Recovery Version New Testament by going to www.biblesforamerica.org [Bibles for America]. Many of the notes you still may not understand. But many will be quite intelligible to you and will offer you real help on Revelation.

I have familiarity with other helpful books on Revelation. In my opinion the Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee is the best. And many of the footnotes of it are contained in the Recovery Version New Testament.

www.recoveryversion.org - The New Testament only of the RcV you can get free.


Notice here the outline to the book of Revelation in the Recovery Version -

http://online.recoveryversion.org/Outlines.asp?bookid=66

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have trouble completely understand Revelations and I don't know if New Jerusalem is a literal city or if it represents something else. I'll just leave that speculation alone at this time.

I have trouble completely understand Revelations and I don't know if New Jerusalem is a literal city or if it represents something else. I'll just leave that speculation alone at this time.

Well of course a real city is people. Let me illustrate by this passage:

Mattew 8:34

English Standard Version
And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus, and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their region.

New American Standard Bible
And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.

King James Bible
And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
At that, the whole town went out to meet Jesus. When they saw Him, they begged Him to leave their region.

Do you see that the CITY biblically speaking here, was the people.

The New Jerusalem is a sign about a huge group of people who are a city in the new heaven and new earth.

Now people are physical of course with glorified bodies in the eternal new heaven and new earth.

And though I would not insist that there is absolutely nothing of something to be seen as we may think of today, I much more lean towards the aspect of the city being the saved and glorified living people.

This is just like the whole city of PEOPLE went out to see Jesus in Matthew 8:34.

The last chapters of this book are a tremendous help on understanding the New Jerusalem.

No, I am not peddling books for the sake of peddling books.

I am encouraging the spiritually hungry as to where help can be found in apprehending the meaning of New Jerusalem to those truth seeking people on the Forum.

The book is The Glorious Church by the late Watchman Nee.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Glorious-Church-Watchman-Nee/dp/0870837451

A sample copied in:

CHAPTER FIVE
THE HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM

We have already seen that the woman in Genesis 2 is the same woman seen in Ephesians 5 and in Revelation 12. Now let us look at another woman, recorded in Revelation 21 and 22.

Although there is a long distance between them, the last two chapters of Revelation correspond with the first three chapters of Genesis. God created the heaven and the earth in Genesis, and the new heaven and the new earth are in the last two chapters of Revelation. In both Genesis and Revelation there is the tree of life. In Genesis there is a river flowing out from Eden, and in Revelation there is a river of living water flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In Genesis there is gold, pearl (bdellium), and a kind of precious stone (onyx), and in Revelation there is gold, pearl, and all kinds of precious stones. In Genesis 2 Eve was Adam's wife. In Revelation 21 the Lamb also has a wife. The Lamb's wife is the New Jerusalem, and God's eternal purpose is fulfilled in this woman. In Genesis 3 man's fall was followed by death, sickness, suffering, and the curse. But, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven in Revelation 21, there is no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain because the former things have all passed away. If we read the Scriptures carefully, we will see that Genesis 1 through 3 does indeed correspond with Revelation 21 and 22. They face each other at the two ends of the expanse of time.

Now we have seen four women: Eve in Genesis 2, the wife (the church) in Ephesians 5, the woman in the vision of Revelation 12, and the wife of the Lamb in Revelation 21. These four women are actually one woman, but her history can be divided into four stages. When she was conceived in the plan of God, she was called Eve. When she is redeemed and manifesting Christ on earth, she is called the church. When she is persecuted by the great dragon, she is the woman in the vision. When she is completely glorified in eternity, she is the wife of the Lamb. These four women reveal God's work from eternity to eternity. The woman in Genesis 2 is the woman purposed in God's heart in eternity past, and the woman in Revelation 21 is the woman who fulfills God's purpose in eternity future. Of the two women in between, one is the church, prepared for Christ by God, and the other is the woman who will bring forth the man-child at the end time. In other words, these four women show us the four stages of the history of one woman: one stage is in eternity past, two stages are between the eternities, and another stage is in eternity future. Even though these four women appear to be different when we speak of them separately, they are the same when we put them together. The wife of the Lamb is the woman of Ephesians 5. Since the Lord Jesus is the Lamb, it is impossible for the woman in Ephesians 5 to be anyone other than the wife of the Lamb. The woman in Ephesians 5 is also likened to Eve, and Eve is also likened to the wife of the Lamb in Revelation 21. When there are overcomers, whose work represents that of the whole church, the woman in Revelation 12 will introduce the woman in Revelation 21. As a result, God in eternity future will indeed obtain a woman, a ruling woman who has dealt thoroughly with Satan. God will truly obtain a wife for the Lamb, and His purpose will be fulfilled. Let us see how the woman of Revelation 12 becomes the woman of Revelation 21.

Pasted in from http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

Originally posted by sonship
.. Among some of the believers participating Grampy Bobby, RJHinds, FreakyKBH, Suzzanne, RBHILL, myself (sonship) and others ..

The height of stupidity and arrogance, is the calling out the names of people who you do not even know and saying that they will be in Gods Kingdom. Have you no respect and regard for Jesus Christ? Are you now the judge?

Let's talk about the jasper color of the city.

"Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:11)

The entire city had the appearance of a jasper stone crystal transparently clear.

If you recall, in chapter four God sitting upon the throne had the appearance of a jasper stone.

"And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance." (Rev. 4:3)

The appearance of God is also the appearance of the city.
The manifest glory of God is the same as the manifest glory of the city.

This means that God has wrought Himself into His people.
What we are told in symbol in Revelation is certainly told to us in plain words of teaching. There should be no objection.

As God was seen on the throne as a jasper so also the New Jerusalem is seen. This should be somewhat obvious by the phrase that the city had the glory of God -

"Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:11)

Now the color of jasper is varied. We are not sure what hew of jasper John saw. I am of the opinion that the color of jasper that he saw was a green color. God on the throne was a deep dark greenish color.

Green is the color of many many living things on the earth in the vegatable world. I think the deep dark green color signifies the richness of life. God looks like the richness of life. That is the meaning of God appearing as deep dark green - jasper.

Jesus Christ came and manifested a exceedingly deep, rich, powerful, divine and human life. He was jasper. He manifest the richness of the eternal life of God. The New Jerusalem in eternity bears the same appearance as God and especially as of the rich manifestation of life in Jesus.

God works Himself INTO His redeemed people.
His redeemed people are to be conformed to the image of Christ that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29)

Come on guys. Wake up! This is good stuff.

In the previous post I explained that the appearance of the glory of God on the throne in Revelation 4 verse 3 is the same appearance of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21 verse 11.

Jasper - I believe - a deep dark green signifying life in its richness is both the manifest glory of God and the that of the city.

Now we need to see that of the twelve foundations of the wall of the city, the FIRST foundation is of jasper too.

"The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: the first was JASPER; ... " (Rev. 21:19, my emphasis).

The foundation speaks of what the city is built upon.
The wall speaks of protection and separation.

The first foundation should relate to the basic reliablility and trustworthiness of the eternal city is the manifest jasper like glory of God. The city is firstly built upon God being manifested in man.

It is not simply a matter of her being built upon correct teaching, though correct teaching is far better than wrong teaching. But it is God wrought into the living of people that forms the foundation.

What do Christians LIVE?
Not what you KNOW but what you LIVE - that is the first foundation of the New Jerusalem.

The richness of the life of God and Christ has to become manifest in the living of the constituents of the New Jerusalem.

The wall is for separation and protection. What needs to be protected. God's interests need to be protected.

The interests of God upon this planet are protected by the transformed saints who [i]firstly[/b] bear the appearance of the rich life which is Christ.

In the garden of Eden there was little protection. Adam was told to keep the garden. That is to keep watch over God's interests. Adam failed.

The symbolism is that where Adam failed there is now eternal success. The multitudes of saints saved are transformed so as to be a wall of protection, protecting for eternity the interests of God in the universe.

"The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone; the first foundation was jasper; ..."

Praise the Lord for the jasper God, the jasper church life, the jasper New Jerusalem and the glory of God separating the city from all that is fallen and common. And the precious interests of God are secure behind the transformed and glorified saints of the New Jerusalem.

Jasper is a transparent precious stone (1 Cor. 3:12). God's appearance is like jasper (4:3) ... The jasper wall signifies that the whole city, as a corporate expression of God in eternity, bears the appearance of God.

[footnote 18(1), Rev, 21:18, Recovery Version New Testament]

You see a great problem to man is where is God and why cannot we see God. God is concerned about this very thing.

God's answer to the problem of why we cannot see God is not to appear on Mt. Sinai again as He did in Exodus. Within 40 days of that the people grew weary, made themselves an idol of a golden calf, and insisted that Aaron take them back to Egypt the place of their slavery.

God's intense desire that He BE seen is to dispense His life into man. That is dispense and impart His divine life and nature into a group of people. The jasper colored God is wrought into the redeemed people.

They become transparently manifesting the Divine Being of God -

"Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:11)

No opaqueness. No foreign element to obscure. Without spot and without blemish. We Christians are a work in progress. The consummation is New Jerusalem.

The New Jerusalem is deified humanity. In a very real sense in her man has become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.

This means that all that is communicable of God's being is dispensed into God's people. Those attributes which are not communicable man does not become. But those attributes of God which He can and will communicate into man's being man becomes.

It is easier to speak for of what man will not become.

1.) Man will not become an object of worship.
2.) Man will not become a creator of universes.
3.) Man will not become omniscient.
4.) Man will not become omnipresent.
5.) Man will not become omnipotent.

These are the most important noncommunicable attributes of God which man does not partake of.

God is the eternal Source of this deification.
God is also the eternal Head of this relationship.

Having established this I now maintain that the entire revelation of the New Jerusalem being a Bride and as Wife to the Redeemer, the Lamb strongly indicates that what Christ is is MATCHED by what this corporate city is.

This is why we should understand that the city is the deification of the saved. This has been taught essentially by Greek Orthodoxy for many years.

We see now the New Jerusalem matches in a corporate what what Jesus Christ, the Godman, is to be able to "marry" Christ forever:

"And saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)

Human beings are saved by the Triune God in order to build up a match for the Godman Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness and salvation are not ends in themselves. They are procedures to the end of the eternal purpose of God to build up a collective and aggregate body of deified human beings to match Christ for eternity.

Here again, the concept of matching God in all His communicable attributes causing Jesus Christ to have a corporate counterpart is seen:

"And one of the angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the BRIDE, the WIFE of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:9, my emphasis)

An angel responsible for executing God's wrath does not want John to stay there gazing at the terrible destructive judgment of God upon the world's wickedness. The angel beckons John to come away to see the real climax of God's heart's desire - the bride and wife for His Son.

"And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." (v.10)

Originally posted by menace71
I always believed the New Jerusalem would be the city where God chooses to dwell in the new heavens and earth but the time stuff is where I believe our minds get messed up on as linear beings we struggle with a concept of no time at all

Manny

I agree that it is difficult for us to image living for eternity or in eternity.

Curiously, months, a delineation of time, is spoken of in reference to the New Jerusalem.

"And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing if the nations." (Rev. 22:2)

This is highly symbolic. However, the mentioning of "each month" is indicative of the passage of linear time as with which we are generally familiar. I do not know completely what this will seem to those with eternal life.

It cannot be stated too many times, the experience of this New Jerusalem is a full taste of what believers in Christ should be enjoying today as a foretaste. Part of the believer's being is already in the potential partaking of this reality.

This is why the writer of Hebrews says that we Christians HAVE come to the heavenly Jerusalem. He does not say that only we WILL come to her. But HAVE come to her already if we are saved.

"But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem ..." (Hebrews 12:22a)

What else could the writer mean by "the city of the living God; the heavenly Jerusalem" except the New Jerusalem seen in its perfection at the end of the book of Revelation ?