1. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    30 May '14 18:513 edits
    My experiences of listening to the minister's sermons and interacting in Sunday school classes during my churchgoing youth left me with the impression that once the 1000-year reign of Jesus on Earth is completed, all humans become purely spirit and live on forever in Heaven or Hell, whichever may be the case for each individual.

    Heaven was not some place occupying our familiar spacetime. Nobody standing on Earth could point to a particular direction in the sky and say, "Heaven is 6,200 light-years in that direction." That left it as plausible to my child self that spacetime ceases to exist after the thousand-year reign. No more galaxies, no more nebulae, planets, comets, asteroids, photons. The Almighty would have no more use for such things, since they had served their purpose of housing flesh-and-blood humans, the pinnacle of Creation.

    It seemed to me, as a kid, that since there really was no need for physical objects in our universe to continue on, scientific talk of things like the Andromeda Galaxy striking the Milky Way galaxy in 4 billion years was in vain-- not going to happen, because those objects will not exist. Even 4-D spacetime will not exist.

    In recent years I heard Billy Graham's daughter preach a sermon on the radio in which she described heaven as a cube 1,500 miles on a side, made of things like gold and jasper. So Heaven would be a 3-D structure made of atoms. That doesn't mesh well with the idea of spirits, I would say, because spirits shouldn't need floors, walls, doors, ceilings, etc. to house themselves.

    What say you of these matters, Believers? Is your understanding of the future and the afterlife different than mine was when I was one of you?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    30 May '14 19:28
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    My experiences of listening to the minister's sermons and interacting in Sunday school classes during my churchgoing youth left me with the impression that once the 1000-year reign of Jesus on Earth is completed, all humans become purely spirit and live on forever in Heaven or Hell, whichever may be the case for each individual.

    Heaven was not some ...[text shortened]... our understanding of the future and the afterlife different than mine was when I was one of you?
    I curious as to how and why you conclude that ...flesh-and-blood humans, the pinnacle of Creation.

    God in my view is a creator who did not just create this world and slumbered and slept therafter. There is most likely intelligent life forms on millions of planets out there, and far advanced than us to boot. We are just one. I am not seeing the need to do away with the rest of the universe.
  3. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    30 May '14 19:473 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I curious as to how and why you conclude that ...flesh-and-blood humans, the pinnacle of Creation.
    "Conclude" is present-tense, but I'll interpret your question to be about my former beliefs: "concluded."

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

    Genesis 1:16-18 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness.

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    For you to imply that something created in the image of the Almighty is not the pinnacle of creation seems to me to border on blasphemy.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    30 May '14 20:21
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    "Conclude" is present-tense, but I'll interpret your question to be about my former beliefs: "concluded."

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

    Genesis 1:16 ...[text shortened]... image of the Almighty is [b]not
    the pinnacle of creation seems to me to border on blasphemy.[/b]
    Blasphemy? Nonsense ! Image is just the shape or form. It says nothing of the content of the being. Christ [the man] was also created in the image of the Almighty, but yet Christ was far superior to man. Man cannot possibly be any pinnacle since after death and resurrection the faithful are promised something better. How can we therefore be 'pinnacle' in this present body?

    I dont know what those other verses are intended to prove. Is that proof that there would be no need for the universe as you said?
  5. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    30 May '14 20:251 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont know what those other verses are intended to prove. Is that proof that there would be no need for the universe as you said?
    Not proof from a Bible believer's perspective, but suggestive that the Creator's purpose for the Sun is to provide light to Earth's biosphere, in which Homo sapiens is explicitly given dominion over all other living things.

    And as far as stars other than the one closest to us, do you not read scripture to say that they are objects placed out there to inspire and delight humans?
  6. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    30 May '14 20:37
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Not proof from a Bible believer's perspective, but suggestive that the Creator's purpose for the Sun is to provide light to Earth's biosphere, in which Homo sapiens is explicitly given dominion over all other living things.

    And as far as stars other than the one closest to us, do you not read scripture to say that they are objects placed out there to inspire and delight humans?
    Objects in the night sky can serve to inspire and delight humans but that cannot be the primary reason for its existence. Obviously you do not believe that there can be intelligent life out there. So your perspective would be limited to man and this limited environment.
  7. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    30 May '14 20:551 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Objects in the night sky can serve to inspire and delight humans but that cannot be the primary reason for its existence. Obviously you do not believe that there can be intelligent life out there. So your perspective would be limited to man and this limited environment.
    Again, you use present tense. "You do not believe..." 🙂

    Only after freeing myself from church ties did I feel comfortable with the possibility of other living things Out There.

    This calls for speculation, so you may not want to answer. But I wonder, what percentage of Hebrew people living 2,300 years ago do you think were open to the idea that those faint dots of light in their night sky were objects more massive than the solid Earth they were standing on? Do you think the writers of the Bible sensed that such was the case?
  8. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    30 May '14 21:01
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Image is just the shape or form. It says nothing of the content of the being.
    Are you saying that your deity has four limbs and a spine?
  9. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    31 May '14 00:35
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Are you saying that your deity has four limbs and a spine?
    Not sure what you getting at here.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    31 May '14 00:422 edits
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Again, you use present tense. "You do not believe..." 🙂

    Only after freeing myself from church ties did I feel comfortable with the possibility of other living things Out There.

    This calls for speculation, so you may not want to answer. But I wonder, what percentage of Hebrew people living 2,300 years ago do you think were open to the idea that t ...[text shortened]... arth they were standing on? Do you think the writers of the Bible sensed that such was the case?
    What does it matter what the Jews of 4000 yrs ago think of the night sky? Or even the writers of the Bible? We have progressed way beyond struggling to provide food and shelter, so knowledge has progressed.

    Here is the reason for me believing in the existence of millions of other civilizations: - that God would not create one world and sit there and stare at it for 6000 years. If God was around for millions of years and there is a vast universe out there with billions of galaxies, and bilions of planets, the only rational conclusion is that God is creating more worlds and has been doing so for millions of years.

    Earth was created for the children of men. Other planets for the children of other species. How does church hinder your mind being open to the idea of other civilizations. Im not a church person so that is a genuine question.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148453
    31 May '14 01:06
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    My experiences of listening to the minister's sermons and interacting in Sunday school classes during my churchgoing youth left me with the impression that once the 1000-year reign of Jesus on Earth is completed, all humans become purely spirit and live on forever in Heaven or Hell, whichever may be the case for each individual.

    Heaven was not some ...[text shortened]... our understanding of the future and the afterlife different than mine was when I was one of you?
    A few scriptures that go to what I think your talking about, sorry if I
    got wrong.

    Isaiah 65: 16-18 NIV
    17 “See, I will create
    new heavens and a new earth.
    The former things will not be remembered,
    nor will they come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I will create,
    for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
    and its people a joy.

    Revelation 3: 11-13 NIV
    11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Revelation 21 (A New Heaven and a New Earth) NIV
    1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
    6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
    9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
    22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148453
    31 May '14 03:101 edit
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    My experiences of listening to the minister's sermons and interacting in Sunday school classes during my churchgoing youth left me with the impression that once the 1000-year reign of Jesus on Earth is completed, all humans become purely spirit and live on forever in Heaven or Hell, whichever may be the case for each individual.

    Heaven was not some ...[text shortened]... our understanding of the future and the afterlife different than mine was when I was one of you?
    One of things I have wondered about will be music, without time
    keeping a beat would be worthless There is a lot about that, that I'm do
    wonder about.
    Kelly
  13. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    31 May '14 03:50
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Not sure what you getting at here.
    Some Bible believers would say Genesis 1:27 is talking about man being the moral image of the Creator, not the three-dimensional shape (head/trunk/limbs/digits) that you are talking about.
  14. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    31 May '14 03:551 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    What does it matter what the Jews of 4000 yrs ago think of the night sky? Or even the writers of the Bible? We have progressed way beyond struggling to provide food and shelter, so knowledge has progressed.
    The church of my youth emphasized that the Holy Bible was not the writings of fallible human beings, but rather the thoughts of God Himself. Any item of knowledge available to God-- which is to say all knowledge, past, present and future-- could go onto the pages of the Bible if God wanted it to. The brainpower of the rabbi writing the passage of scripture down for the first time was irrelevant, because God was using just the fingers of the rabbi, not the brain.
  15. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    31 May '14 04:01
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    How does church hinder your mind being open to the idea of other civilizations. Im not a church person so that is a genuine question.
    Here's a hypothetical conversation between Sunday school teacher Twyla and little Paul Dirac around the age of thirteen--

    Twyla: "Does God love us individual humans?"

    Paul: "Why sure He does!"

    Twyla: "Would God use scripture to lie to us?"

    Paul: "Definitely not."

    Twyla: "Is there such a thing as lying by omission?"

    Paul: "Yes. You've given examples of that to us, in regard to our honesty with our parents."

    Twyla: "So could there be something profoundly important about His universe that He withholds in His words to us in the pages of the Bible, to keep us ignorant?"

    Paul: "No, His love for us would prevent Him from doing something sneaky like that to us."

    Twyla: "So what can we say about this dramatic idea of beings living elsewhere in the universe?"

    Paul: "It is fiction."
Back to Top