1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    12 May '07 17:45
    If God had set the universe in motion (eg via the big bang etc) and left it at that we would be able to say to him ....

    " God , you have left me at the mercy of natural forces that determine my actions and choices . I am nothing more than a meat computer at the end of 12 billion years of caused events which you set in motion. I am what I am
    and that's all there is to it. I can be nothing more than what I am caused to be by random/determined factors. How can you stand in judgement over me? How can you say I can be more than just who I am caused ot be by nature? How?"

    The answer is that of course God did not just leave it at that. If he had not entered into this world and shared his nature with us then he could have no debate with us . But he has made it possible for us to be more than randomness , more than just determined by nature. He has opened up the possibility of us being responsible for our actions because of Jesus. Because God's spirit has been made available to man via his sacrifice no man may say " I am what I am and I can do no different" Jesus knows that we can. That's essentially what free will is to a Chrsitian.
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    12 May '07 18:57
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If God had set the universe in motion (eg via the big bang etc) and left it at that we would be able to say to him ....

    " God , you have left me at the mercy of natural forces that determine my actions and choices . I am nothing more than a meat computer at the end of 12 billion years of caused events which you set in motion. I am what I am
    and th ...[text shortened]... different" Jesus knows that we can. That's essentially what free will is to a Chrsitian.
    so you have free will but you still must obey the 10 commandments yeah?
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
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    12 May '07 19:07
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    so you have free will but you still must obey the 10 commandments yeah?
    Yep , God says these are the ten commandments to live by but you don't have to if you don't want to. That's free in my book.
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    12 May '07 20:50
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Yep , God says these are the ten commandments to live by but you don't have to if you don't want to. That's free in my book.
    but you just said these are the commandments to live by, that implies you have to live by then! so its not free will
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 May '07 12:51
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    but you just said these are the commandments to live by, that implies you have to live by then! so its not free will
    There's a difference between an exhortation and an actual forcing of an action. God does not force us to follow he just says if you want to follow this is how to do it.
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    13 May '07 17:29
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    There's a difference between an exhortation and an actual forcing of an action. God does not force us to follow he just says if you want to follow this is how to do it.
    The threat of force is present in the Christian tradition in the form of hell. How is impending punishment over failure to choose god's way a free choice?

    The answer of course is that it isn't.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 May '07 18:48
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    but you just said these are the commandments to live by, that implies you have to live by then! so its not free will
    It's free will because if you want to reject the only purpose you are created for then you have that ability. I do not understand why men choose not to , but there you go. It's still free because more than one possibility is available.
    BTW - God cannot make you fulfilled by commanding you to live a sinful life. You might as well say you want more freedom and because God does not command you to stick your head in an oven you are somehow less free.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 May '07 18:541 edit
    Originally posted by Starrman
    The threat of force is present in the Christian tradition in the form of hell. How is impending punishment over failure to choose god's way a free choice?

    The answer of course is that it isn't.
    The threat of force is present in the Christian tradition in the form of hell. How is impending punishment over failure to choose god's way a free choice?

    The answer of course is that it isn't. STARRMAN

    The answer is that the concept of hell is a warning to us. God is going to punish evil and sin (because he is holy) if we stand before him without the umbrella of Jesus to shelter under then we will get wet. That's why he's telling us to get under the umbrella he is offering. But still men choose to stand before him in their own supposed righteousness , maybe he shouldn't have bothered with the warning? You see despite what you are saying we still don't take heed. There are many that the warning doesn't seem to "force" .
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    13 May '07 19:01
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The threat of force is present in the Christian tradition in the form of hell. How is impending punishment over failure to choose god's way a free choice?

    The answer of course is that it isn't. STARRMAN

    The answer is that the concept of hell is a warning to us. God is going to punish evil and sin (because he is holy) if we stand before him witho ...[text shortened]... ing we still don't take heed. There are many that the warning doesn't seem to "force" .
    Typically apologist nonsense, as usual.

    If gods gift was worth taking people wouldn't need threatening. There's not a single reason why god should need to warn us, he created the good, the bad, the ugly, then he created us in his image. He's responsible for all his actions and all ours, to suggest that we need warning makes hima laughing stock.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 May '07 19:40
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Typically apologist nonsense, as usual.

    If gods gift was worth taking people wouldn't need threatening. There's not a single reason why god should need to warn us, he created the good, the bad, the ugly, then he created us in his image. He's responsible for all his actions and all ours, to suggest that we need warning makes hima laughing stock.
    If gods gift was worth taking people wouldn't need threatening. There's not a single reason why god should need to warn us, he created the good, the bad, the ugly, then he created us in his image. He's responsible for all his actions and all ours, to suggest that we need warning makes hima laughing stock.STARMAN

    I see your point and agree with much of it. Of course for many the warning is not neccesary and for some it is. If you are a parent you know that some children will respond to gentle persuasion and the offer of good things , other children need a stern rebuke to avoid hurting themselves , they need a sharper response to help them see the good things. If God only had one way of doing things he would be quite a limited parent. Any good parent is not going to let their child just walk off a cliff without shouting pretty loudly at them!
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    13 May '07 20:42
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If gods gift was worth taking people wouldn't need threatening. There's not a single reason why god should need to warn us, he created the good, the bad, the ugly, then he created us in his image. He's responsible for all his actions and all ours, to suggest that we need warning makes hima laughing stock.STARMAN

    I see your point and agree with much ...[text shortened]... is not going to let their child just walk off a cliff without shouting pretty loudly at them!
    then we dont have free will..! you're contradicting yourself... basically the idea is we have free will, as long as its god's will
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    14 May '07 07:47
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    It's free will because if you want to reject the only purpose you are created for then you have that ability. I do not understand why men choose not to , but there you go.
    Men choose not to because they do not believe in the options. If the options are truly as you say they are then nobody would willingly choose hell. So again it comes back to God not making the information freely available thus not allowing a free choice.
    I for example do not believe in God thus for me, doing what most Christians tell me I should is simply 'not an option'.
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    14 May '07 07:50
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The answer is that of course God did not just leave it at that.
    When man finally designs a conscious computer which is capable of behaving exactly like a conscious human being in all respects including possibly a belief in God, then will that computer be incapable of getting to heaven because its circuits do not have that special 'free will' chip that God gave us?
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    14 May '07 07:54
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    That's essentially what free will is to a Christian.
    I can guarantee that your concept of free will is not the same as all other Christians. In fact, I rather doubt that the majority of Christians share your views as I have not heard it before and no one else has bothered to support your ideas in any of your threads on the matter.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
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    14 May '07 07:57
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When man finally designs a conscious computer which is capable of behaving exactly like a conscious human being in all respects including possibly a belief in God, then will that computer be incapable of getting to heaven because its circuits do not have that special 'free will' chip that God gave us?
    When man finally designs a conscious computer which is capable of behaving exactly like a conscious human being in all respects including possibly a belief in God, then will that computer be incapable of getting to heaven because its circuits do not have that special 'free will' chip that God gave us?WHITEY

    I doubt it. The computer would need to be indwelt by Christ to be truely free of it's programming , as if such a thing were possible. It's not consciousness nor belief in God even that does the business , it's the internal power of the living Christ who enables (with our co-operation) freedom from the inevitable.
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