what free will is...

Originally posted by twhitehead
I can guarantee that your concept of free will is not the same as all other Christians. In fact, I rather doubt that the majority of Christians share your views as I have not heard it before and no one else has bothered to support your ideas in any of your threads on the matter.

Don't confuse presentation with content.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Men choose not to because they do not believe in the options. If the options are truly as you say they are then nobody would willingly choose hell. So again it comes back to God not making the information freely available thus not allowing a free choice.
I for example do not believe in God thus for me, doing what most Christians tell me I should is simply 'not an option'.

I agree that it's seems incredible that anyone would willing choose hell but human nature is quite incredible sometimes. You say God has not made the information available but he's done quite a lot. He's incarnated on earth , provided an entire text to research , offered clear instruction on who he is and what he is about , offered a path by which men may come to know him , made the power of his spirit freely available to us through Christ ...he's not exactly sat on his hands.

One thing I would say he does do is hold back some of his cards in order to give us a chance to choose. If he made himself completely and utterly known he would be so compelling that choice would go out of the window. The partial darkness we live in allows us to be free.

Originally posted by eatmybishop
then we dont have free will..! you're contradicting yourself... basically the idea is we have free will, as long as its god's will

Wrong again , we can go God's way but we are not forced like robots to go his way. However , God can only exhort us to go his way because he knows that is the only way we can be happy. He's hardly going to tell us to walk the path of sin and destruction now is he?

Fre will does not imply that ALL options are open to us , just that we are free to go our own way or God's way. Free will means that we control our own destiny in this respect. Heaven is not for robots.

Originally posted by knightmeister
One thing I would say he does do is hold back some of his cards in order to give us a chance to choose. If he made himself completely and utterly known he would be so compelling that choice would go out of the window. The partial darkness we live in allows us to be free.

Partial freedom? Where do you get this stuff? Either we've got free will, or we don't, if god's holding back, or we're only partly allowed to choose, then it isn't freedom.

On another point, what makes you think that god's actually revealing himself would be enough to have me worship him? Believe in him, undoubtedly, but follow him? No, I doubt it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Fre will does not imply that ALL options are open to us , just that we are free to go our own way or God's way. Free will means that we control our own destiny in this respect. Heaven is not for robots.

Actually that's exactly what it means, otherwise it wouldn't be 'free' will, it owuld be 'part' will or something. You're backtracking your position to make it compatible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Don't confuse presentation with content.

I am not. It is you who are generalizing and assuming that all Christians have the same beliefs. They do not.

[edit]
Note in the Atheism & Nescience thread epiphinehas makes it clear that he does not believe that belief in God is a free choice but rather the work of the Holy spirit

Originally posted by knightmeister
One thing I would say he does do is hold back some of his cards in order to give us a chance to choose. If he made himself completely and utterly known he would be so compelling that choice would go out of the window. The partial darkness we live in allows us to be free.

So free will is only possible in the absence of information? What sort of choice is that? Your back to random guess work triumphing over reason.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You say God has not made the information available but he's done quite a lot. He's incarnated on earth , provided an entire text to research , offered clear instruction on who he is and what he is about , offered a path by which men may come to know him , made the power of his spirit freely available to us through Christ ...he's not exactly sat on his hands.

But that 'information' is not available to me as I believe it to be false. I doubt if you spend much time reading the Qu'ran and thus any messages from God in that book are lost on you.
But I guess it all makes sense now that you have pointed out that free will is only free if you don't know what you are choosing between.
You can keep your free will, I don't want it. I prefer to base my important decisions on reason rather than guesses in the dark that are only presented to you to ensure that you are properly accountable (and punishable) on judgment day.

Originally posted by eatmybishop
so you have free will but you still must obey the 10 commandments yeah?

I guess the 'obey' sort goes right over your head uh? You have
a choice if you are told to obey, it does not mean that you are
going to obey, only that you are told too.
Kelly

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yep , God says these are the ten commandments to live by but you don't have to if you don't want to. That's free in my book.

We can choose to live by the ten commandments (and go to heaven) or not obey them (and go to hell) but apparently we don´t have the ability to choose neither of these options i.e. "I choose not to obey the ten commandments because I don´t believe in God, not because I believe in him but don´t want to do what he says, and because of this I don´t go to hell but neither do I get to go to heaven."

This is how I´ve elected to live my life but, according to the Bible, I shouldn´t be able to make this choice. In fact, I should be destined to go to hell when I die. If this is the case then I don´t have free will because my choice exists within a system of control that I cannot elect to not be a part of.

Originally posted by nige22
We can choose to live by the ten commandments (and go to heaven) or not obey them (and go to hell) but apparently we don´t have the ability to choose neither of these options i.e. "I choose not to obey the ten commandments because I don´t believe in God, not because I believe in him but don´t want to do what he says, and because of this I don´t go to hell but ...[text shortened]... l because my choice exists within a system of control that I cannot elect to not be a part of.

That does what to your free will, you have choices, you make up your
mind and those choices have ends to them, one good or bad. The
fact that you have knowledge about the end of some choices over
others does not mean that your ability to make a choice has been
taken away. I'd be willing to go so far as it simply highlights the
importance of our choices nothing more. We are still going to do what
we want, and we will justify ourselves anyway we can in our choices.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
That does what to your free will, you have choices, you make up your
mind and those choices have ends to them, one good or bad. The
fact that you have knowledge about the end of some choices over
others does not mean that your ability to make a choice has been
taken away. I'd be willing to go so far as it simply highlights the
importance of our choices ...[text shortened]... l going to do what
we want, and we will justify ourselves anyway we can in our choices.
Kelly

Ok, I don´t want to go to hell, if it exists, for obvious reasons but neither do I want to go to heaven if it means I have to have lived a Christian life to get there. According to Christian beliefs, however, I have no 3rd option. Therefore I´m being forced to choose between options 1 and 2 because they are the only options that exist. I have to choose one of these otherwise my refusal to choose becomes a choice in itself - option 3. And, according to Christian beliefs, option 3 doesn´t exist.

Originally posted by Starrman
Partial freedom? Where do you get this stuff? Either we've got free will, or we don't, if god's holding back, or we're only partly allowed to choose, then it isn't freedom.

On another point, what makes you think that god's actually revealing himself would be enough to have me worship him? Believe in him, undoubtedly, but follow him? No, I doubt it.

Partial freedom? Where do you get this stuff? Either we've got free will, or we don't, if god's holding back, or we're only partly allowed to choose, then it isn't freedom. STARMAN

If we have the freedom to choose God or not then that is the only free choice that is important. I have never argued that we are completely free but that we can make some free choices. I don't know why you think that us having some free choices is not freedom . It may not be as free as having 100% freedom but it is certainly some freedom.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that 'information' is not available to me as I believe it to be false. I doubt if you spend much time reading the Qu'ran and thus any messages from God in that book are lost on you.
But I guess it all makes sense now that you have pointed out that free will is only free if you don't know what you are choosing between.
You can keep your free will, I ...[text shortened]... sented to you to ensure that you are properly accountable (and punishable) on judgment day.

But I guess it all makes sense now that you have pointed out that free will is only free if you don't know what you are choosing between.
You can keep your free will, I don't want it. WHITEY

And I would not want it either if that was what it was , but it isn't . We are designed to make free choices in the full moral knowledge of what we are choosing. I have always said it was not something arbitrary. All I have said is that the reason for choosing is not one that forces us to choose. Our choices have reasons that go with them but they do not force the choice itself. We are aware of the reasoning behind both choices but nothing within those choices determines the choice. That's the bit that we do of our own volition.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not. It is you who are generalizing and assuming that all Christians have the same beliefs. They do not.

[edit]
Note in the [b]Atheism & Nescience thread epiphinehas makes it clear that he does not believe that belief in God is a free choice but rather the work of the Holy spirit[/b]

Note in the Atheism & Nescience thread epiphinehas makes it clear that he does not believe that belief in God is a free choice but rather the work of the Holy spirit WHITEY

...And I would agree with him to an extent but I doubt he said it was not a free choice. It is the work of the Holy Spirit but , the Holy Spirit can only get to work if we let him in , and that requires our co-operation. It stands to reason. If what you are saying is true then we would all be Christians because God would force his spirit on us and makes us all into Christians. The fact that he doesn't is the only thing that enables you to be on this forum and argue against him...of your own free will. Don't worry , God is not angry about this...he expects it. He'll find a way if you let him.