Originally posted by StarrmanOk , part will if you like , it matters not as long as at the very point of conversion you are as free as you could be to choose or not choose.
Actually that's exactly what it means, otherwise it wouldn't be 'free' will, it owuld be 'part' will or something. You're backtracking your position to make it compatible.
Originally posted by knightmeisterOf course it matters. The threat of damnation is far more powerful than the 'offer' of paradise. Not only that, but having accepted that god exists and done your best to do his bidding, you can still end up in hell at the end of the day. There's no gift here and no freedom, the chooser is not an informed agent of his own choice, but a patient of God's partial, obtuse and hostile hand.
Ok , part will if you like , it matters not as long as at the very point of conversion you are as free as you could be to choose or not choose.
Originally posted by StarrmanAll I can say is how do you know all this? Since you have no idea what it feels like to make that decision or have these beliefs then you are only projecting from your imagination. What you imagine God to be like is not the reality .
Of course it matters. The threat of damnation is far more powerful than the 'offer' of paradise. Not only that, but having accepted that god exists and done your best to do his bidding, you can still end up in hell at the end of the day. There's no gift here and no freedom, the chooser is not an informed agent of his own choice, but a patient of God's partial, obtuse and hostile hand.
Originally posted by nige22We can choose to live by the ten commandments (and go to heaven) or not obey them (and go to hell) but apparently we don´t have the ability to choose neither of these options i.e. "I choose not to obey the ten commandments because I don´t believe in God, not because I believe in him but don´t want to do what he says, and because of this I don´t go to hell but neither do I get to go to heaven."
We can choose to live by the ten commandments (and go to heaven) or not obey them (and go to hell) but apparently we don´t have the ability to choose neither of these options i.e. "I choose not to obey the ten commandments because I don´t believe in God, not because I believe in him but don´t want to do what he says, and because of this I don´t go to hell but ...[text shortened]... l because my choice exists within a system of control that I cannot elect to not be a part of.
This is how I´ve elected to live my life but, according to the Bible, I shouldn´t be able to make this choice. In fact, I should be destined to go to hell when I die. If this is the case then I don´t have free will because my choice exists within a system of control that I cannot elect to not be a part of.NIGE
I know , you have my sympathies. God offers us the free option of a joy beyond imagination , something so incredibly beautiful that you would cry tears of ecstasy for weeks if you got even a glimpse of it. To be loved so passionately and intimately that our hearts might break from it. All this for eternity too. All we have to do is humble ourselves , surrender our will to God's will and let him take us there. I agree , pretty poor deal if you ask me. Not much of a choice really.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that no 3rd option is offered is because there is no 3rd option. ?
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt's got nothing to do with that (despite the fact that I was a Christian until the age of 16 or so), it's the logical implication of holding the premises you do concerning god's so called gift.
All I can say is how do you know all this? Since you have no idea what it feels like to make that decision or have these beliefs then you are only projecting from your imagination. What you imagine God to be like is not the reality .
Originally posted by nige22I'm not sure what you mean by live a Christian life, what do you
Ok, I don´t want to go to hell, if it exists, for obvious reasons but neither do I want to go to heaven if it means I have to have lived a Christian life to get there. According to Christian beliefs, however, I have no 3rd option. Therefore I´m being forced to choose between options 1 and 2 because they are the only options that exist. I have to choose one ...[text shortened]... mes a choice in itself - option 3. And, according to Christian beliefs, option 3 doesn´t exist.
thnk that means?
As far as your limited choices go, life is full of them, you don't work
you don't get paid, you do not pay your bills they take away your
stuff, you speed and drink you lose your right to drive. You liking or
disliking the outcomes has nothing to do with the choices and those
outcomes simply having likes and dislikes adds nothing to it.
Kelly
Originally posted by StarrmanYou do not seem to understand God's gift and seem to have a very fearful image of God who fills you with the threat of damnation AND even if you follow him might cast you into hell at the last minute. It's hardly surprising that you stopped being a Christian. Such a God would be a hard task master who would seem very threatening to you.It's not the God I know.
It's got nothing to do with that (despite the fact that I was a Christian until the age of 16 or so), it's the logical implication of holding the premises you do concerning god's so called gift.
If you were a Christian out of fear then it could never last. How could you learn to love such a God? Sounds like you had two choices , either consider the possibility that your image and perception of God was faulty or stop being a Christian. Pity you chose the latter.
Originally posted by KellyJayApparently some people think it entails being joyless and miserable—and always really wanting to do things you’re not allowed to. Towing a hard line in this life in order to experience joy in the next.
I'm not sure what you mean by live a Christian life, what do you
thnk that means?
As far as your limited choices go, life is full of them, you don't work
you don't get paid, you do not pay your bills they take away your
stuff, you speed and drink you lose your right to drive. You liking or
disliking the outcomes has nothing to do with the choices and those
outcomes simply having likes and dislikes adds nothing to it.
Kelly
I think maybe it’s because some Christians bang the morality drum harder than the spirituality drum. Old black-coat Puritan stuff. If you’re having a good time, it must mean you’re sinning.
I actually got some of that growing up—which, in retrospect, I think might be unusual for a Lutheran. (Luther lightened up a lot after he married Katie von Bora.)
Most Christians I have known do not have more joylessness and misery in their lives than anyone else—and a good many of them are pretty joyful. I’ve always liked the way the French Bible translated praos—debonair, instead of the English meek (which may have once been closer to debonair).
Originally posted by knightmeisterOnce again, please don't presume to know the psychology behind my argument, you're way off. My opinions in this thread have nothing to do with fear, or failure, but the clear and logical implications of a set of parameters pertaining to the nature of punishment and reward in the Christian tradition. That you consider this part-will acceptable is fine for you, but it fails to cut the mustard for me and for anyone able to follow the argument correctly.
You do not seem to understand God's gift and seem to have a very fearful image of God who fills you with the threat of damnation AND even if you follow him might cast you into hell at the last minute. It's hardly surprising that you stopped being a Christian. Such a God would be a hard task master who would seem very threatening to you.It's not the God ...[text shortened]... image and perception of God was faulty or stop being a Christian. Pity you chose the latter.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI have never understood why many Christians seem to assume that all atheists are really closet Theists and believe in Christianity.
Such a God would be a hard task master who would seem very threatening to you.It's not the God I know.
If you were a Christian out of fear then it could never last. How could you learn to love such a God? Sounds like you had two choices , either consider the possibility that your image and perception of God was faulty or stop being a Christian. Pity you chose the latter.
A typical comment belying that fact is the claim that an atheist has "rejected God".
Your comment implies that it is possible for someone to actually change their beliefs because they don't like reality. Either by becoming an atheist, or by inventing a more acceptable view of God simply because of fear, you are literally creating belief without evidence which smacks of self delusion to me. It makes me think that your ready acceptance of such behavior which to me seems like madness might indicate that you yourself are guilty of it. Do you believe what you do because you like it? or because you actually think it is true for other reasons? If God turned out to be nasty would you cover your eyes and pretend otherwise?
I became atheist because Christianity didn't add up. I have sometimes wished that God did exist but wishing something does not convince me that it is true any more than wishing for faeries has succeeded in instantiating them.
Some people believe in God but decide to live life as they wish ignoring any rules and leave any possible repercussions till later, but an atheist is not someone who has 'turned away from God' he is someone who does not believe that God exists.
Originally posted by StarrmanMy opinions in this thread have nothing to do with fear, or failure, but the clear and logical implications of a set of parameters pertaining to the nature of punishment and reward in the Christian tradition.STARMAN
Once again, please don't presume to know the psychology behind my argument, you're way off. My opinions in this thread have nothing to do with fear, or failure, but the clear and logical implications of a set of parameters pertaining to the nature of punishment and reward in the Christian tradition. That you consider this part-will acceptable is fine for ...[text shortened]... , but it fails to cut the mustard for me and for anyone able to follow the argument correctly.
However , your image of God is still fearful and seems morally abhorent to you (and me) . I would not follow such a god and neither are you. This is a good thing not a bad thing , however you treat God as some kind of mathematical problem to be solved rather than someone who can be known personally. Have you not heard of the God who is slow to anger and quick to forgive? Have you not heard about the God whoose heart is bursting to fill you with his love and peace?If you only have one half of the jigsaw puzzle how can you make an accurate picture?
Originally posted by twhiteheadI have never understood why many Christians seem to assume that all atheists are really closet Theists and believe in Christianity.
I have never understood why many Christians seem to assume that all atheists are really closet Theists and believe in Christianity.
A typical comment belying that fact is the claim that an atheist has "rejected God".
Your comment implies that it is possible for someone to actually change their beliefs because they don't like reality. Either by becoming ...[text shortened]... someone who has 'turned away from God' he is someone who does not believe that God exists.
A typical comment belying that fact is the claim that an atheist has "rejected God".
Your comment implies that it is possible for someone to actually change their beliefs because they don't like reality. Either by becoming an atheist, or by inventing a more acceptable view of God simply because of fear, you are literally creating belief without evidence which smacks of self delusion to me. It makes me think that your ready acceptance of such behavior which to me seems like madness might indicate that you yourself are guilty of it. Do you believe what you do because you like it? or because you actually think it is true for other reasons? If God turned out to be nasty would you cover your eyes and pretend otherwise?
I became atheist because Christianity didn't add up. I have sometimes wished that God did exist but wishing something does not convince me that it is true any more than wishing for faeries has succeeded in instantiating them. WHITEY
This is good stuff and it is a potentially very rich line of debate. The whole process of Christianity is about finding out more about what God is like and who he really is. I did not say that Starman was a closet Theist , he admitted that he walked away from Christianity because he found it didn't add up and he felt the image of God he was being sold was not reasonable to him or emotionally satisfying.
Now one thing we do know for sure is that there are many different ideas about what God is like and religions and sects etc etc. suggesting that there must be false notions of God out there.
The question I am asking Starman is whether he ever considered that it might be his perception that was mistaken rather than his belief that God existed. This seems a perfectly valid line of enquiry to me since many Christians go through the process of re-addressing their perceptions of God. This is what you would expect them to do. You go to a talk and something illuminates you and you think "hmmm I didn't think about it like that before..."
I went to a talk years ago about how God celebrates the good things we do rather than focusses on our mistakes. It was a real eye opener. One thing I also know is that a very very very common misperception of God is that he is itching to punish us and is vengeful , judging and doesn't think very much of us etc etc (ie not a God of love). It seems apparent that Starman has something of this image of God when he says God could still chuck him into hell willy nilly.
You see I don't think Starman has rejected God at all , he's rejected a false notion of God. The problem is that he seems unable to consider that what he thought was real was just his notion and that the reason he rejected it was that somewhere within him that notion violated the laws of love , truth and justice whcih God has written on all our hearts.
I am anticipating all sorts of responses regarding " it's not his notion it's what 's in the Bible!" .....responses such as these would ignore the fact that the best lies are built on half truths.
Originally posted by knightmeisterHere's a response you probably weren't anticipating:
I am anticipating all sorts of responses regarding " it's not his notion it's what 's in the Bible!" .....responses such as these would ignore the fact that the best lies are built on half truths.
Starrman, quit slumming in here and update the Gnipes website!
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdThat, my good man, is the realm of rbmorris these days. I suggest you bribe him with presents, I hear he likes fine wines and rare spices.
Here's a response you probably weren't anticipating:
Starrman, quit slumming in here and update the Gnipes website!