1. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 18:34
    Posted in 'Islam and Modernity' in the debates forum:

    [...]I just ran across this quote of Alexis de Tocqueville on Wikipedia:

    "Muhammad professed to derive from Heaven, and he has inserted in the Koran, not only a body of religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The gospel, on the contrary, only speaks of the general relations of men to God and to each other - beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, whilst the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods."

    Tocqueville, apparently, didn't agree that Islam was compatible with democracy. think his argument fails because it attempts to draw a line between Christianity from Islam and I think both go beyond that line.

    That said, I agree that such religions cannot 'predominate in a cultivated and democratic age' and face two options. The first is a unflinching defense of principles which will slowly lose support from the population as they contrast with a 'cultivated and democratic age' and the second is a (progressive) trim of all doctrine that expands beyond the sphere of Spirituality.

    In my opinion, both must choose the second option (or die out fairly quickly) and the fact that democratic advances are more implemented in Christian cultures is the reason why Christianity is more flexible than Islam as it progressively sheds such notions, but eventually Islam will accompany that trend as Muslims countries become more democratic.
  2. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 18:35
    Will Christianity and Islam tend to a form of Zen/Gnostic Christianity and Zen/Gnostic Islam?

    What do you think is the logical progression of these religions?
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    12 Nov '06 18:43
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Posted in 'Islam and Modernity' in the debates forum:

    [...]I just ran across this quote of Alexis de Tocqueville on Wikipedia:

    "[i]Muhammad professed to derive from Heaven, and he has inserted in the Koran, not only a body of religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The gospel, on the contrary, only s ...[text shortened]... eventually Islam will accompany that trend as Muslims countries become more democratic.
    Christianity if the beliefs it holds are true, suggests that the time left
    for the planet as is, is short. The progression of man will lead to wars
    and rumors of wars, with other things occuring such as great earth
    quakes, and strife between man and man, as well as man and God
    until Jesus returns.
    Kelly
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Nov '06 18:47
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Christianity if the beliefs it holds are true, suggests that the time left
    for the planet as is, is short. The progression of man will lead to wars
    and rumors of wars, with other things occuring such as great earth
    quakes, and strife between man and man, as well as man and God
    until Jesus returns.
    Kelly
    We've heard that song and dance for 1900+ years.
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    12 Nov '06 19:04
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Posted in 'Islam and Modernity' in the debates forum:

    [...]I just ran across this quote of Alexis de Tocqueville on Wikipedia:

    "[i]Muhammad professed to derive from Heaven, and he has inserted in the Koran, not only a body of religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The gospel, on the contrary, only s ...[text shortened]... eventually Islam will accompany that trend as Muslims countries become more democratic.
    Before we discuss that. Does Islam really aganist Democracy?


    Does the political systems exist today in any Islamic country reflect Islamic political?

    No Islamic country today apply Islamic laws. We cann't say they are not democratic becuase they Islamic counties. They don't follow it. For example in Egypt most of the laws and rules of the government are inspired from the French laws. Only some laws related to Marriage and Divorce are taken from Islam. And some criminal laws. But the majority are french. Also the political system is far from Islamic doctrines.

    You may argue with me on that, but if they gave the chance to Islam to rule it could make difference.
  6. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 19:40
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Before we discuss that. Does Islam really aganist Democracy?


    Does the political systems exist today in any Islamic country reflect Islamic political?

    No Islamic country today apply Islamic laws. We cann't say they are not democratic becuase they Islamic counties. They don't follow it. For example in Egypt most of the laws and rules of the governmen ...[text shortened]... argue with me on that, but if they gave the chance to Islam to rule it could make difference.
    Against is a strong word. I implied that neither Islam nor Christianity will be necessarily wiped out by democracy.

    I don't understand exactly what you mean by your second question. I think that the Islam that you speak of, the tolerant Islam, will surface more easily under a democracy.
  7. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 19:44
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Christianity if the beliefs it holds are true, suggests that the time left
    for the planet as is, is short. The progression of man will lead to wars
    and rumors of wars, with other things occuring such as great earth
    quakes, and strife between man and man, as well as man and God
    until Jesus returns.
    Kelly
    Define short.

    As long as he doesn't return, would you agree with what I said?
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    12 Nov '06 19:52
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Against is a strong word. I implied that neither Islam nor Christianity will be necessarily wiped out by democracy.

    I don't understand exactly what you mean by your second question. I think that the Islam that you speak of, the tolerant Islam, will surface more easily under a democracy.
    What I mean that there is no relation between Islam and non democratic systems exit today in Islamic country because they don't apply Islam.

    In your first post you mentioned a paragraph say that Islam is not only a religon but it is a complete system. It cann't be applied in parts.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Nov '06 19:54
    Isn't Iran an Islamic democracy?
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    12 Nov '06 19:58
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Isn't Iran an Islamic democracy?
    Iran are Shea. And they are considered non muslims. They claim they are Muslims but they don't belive in some basic Islamic tenets and so they are not considered Muslims.
  11. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 20:01
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Isn't Iran an Islamic democracy?
    What do you mean Islamic democracy? A theocratic democracy? 😵
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    12 Nov '06 20:03
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Isn't Iran an Islamic democracy?
    Can you define Democracy for me? It has different meaning depending on the siuation. Which one you mean here?
  13. Standard memberPalynka
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    12 Nov '06 20:05
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    What I mean that there is no relation between Islam and non democratic systems exit today in Islamic country because they don't apply Islam.

    In your first post you mentioned a paragraph say that Islam is not only a religon but it is a complete system. It cann't be applied in parts.
    What do you mean it can't be applied in parts? Do you mean that Islam cannot coexist with other religions within a democracy?

    If it can (like I believe) then I don't see the problem.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    12 Nov '06 20:11
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    We've heard that song and dance for 1900+ years.
    You have now, you have been around a long time, uh?
    Kelly
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    12 Nov '06 20:12
    Originally posted by Palynka
    What do you mean it can't be applied in parts? Do you mean that Islam cannot coexist with other religions within a democracy?

    If it can (like I believe) then I don't see the problem.
    What I mean some of the Islamic regulation and laws may seem Odd to others if applied alone. But withen the complete system they will be normal. That is what I mean with the first point.

    For your second question , there is no problem in Islam to co operate with people in other religons. There is a regulation for the relation with others. And non-muslims used to live in Islamic socities with no problem at all.

    The view of democracy is Islam is a little bit different. That is why I asked about what any one really mean by democracy?
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