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16 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidNo, how about you look at the verse I highlighted in bold and deny its truth.
Cherry-picking is pulling out pieces of the writings [Paul in this case] and leaving out the rest which completes the story. If you continue in Ephesians you will see that Paul is telling these very same born again, saved Christian saints in Christ they they will NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God unless they DO certain things and live a certain way.
How about quoting that for us?
Go on?
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16 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidI’ve given you a specific, exact, unequivocal scripture from Ephesians which you don’t like.
The notion that that is an error is the teachings of your church and it is not in the bible. You will find NOWHERE that Jesus told anyone that they need to believe in, or know about, or understand, or boast about [that Jesus died for me etc], his redemptive work on the cross.
If Jesus did preach such a thing then please quote the reference.
When you admit that that scripture is truth, then I might be interested in your favourite scriptures.
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16 Nov 20
@secondson saidOk thanks.
I appreciate your post, your honesty and sincerity. Your openness is refreshing and inspiring.
I concur with your assessment of what being a Christian means in your life, how it is manifested in the way you live because it neatly dovetails with my own assessment of myself.
I am deeply invested in Christ, and he in me. I am aware of his presence, and more so everyday. ...[text shortened]... ace to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12
But what exactly is a Christian, in your opinion?
16 Nov 20
@divegeester saidA Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, which is impossible to be until and unless one is "born again". Saved! By the blood of Christ!
Ok thanks.
But what exactly is a Christian, in your opinion?
Salvation is all of God. In other words, God does the saving. Our part is in the believing. We can add nothing to what saves us by anything we do.
Then comes the part where we obey. Obedience doesn't save, but it is an essential part of what makes fellowship with God deepen with each passing day.
God's plan of redemption is nothing short of miraculous, and a sure sign of his love for man.
16 Nov 20
@secondson saidSo one must obey Christ's commandments in order to be a Christian?
Then comes the part where we obey. Obedience doesn't save, but it is an essential part of what makes fellowship with God deepen with each passing day.
16 Nov 20
@fmf saidThat's not what I said.
So one must obey Christ's commandments in order to be a Christian?
Firstly, one must be "born again", then one is a Christian.
Secondly, one must obey in order to have the kind of fellowship that only a Christian can have with God.
Without obedience the Christian is subject to God's chastisement. Not punishment. "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
It's a Christian thing. You wouldn't understand. 😄
@divegeester saidThe verse is true of course. However we are speaking of different things.
No, how about you look at the verse I highlighted in bold and deny its truth.
Go on?
My verse from Matt 25 speaks of eternal life in the Kingdom of God, in which Jesus speaks clearly of who gets in and who is cast out.
Your verse is from the writings of Paul who speaks of being saved. Both are true but saved is NOT ETERNAL LIFE in the Kingdom of God.
Paul did in fact speak of eternal life in the Kingdom of God but you choose to cherry pick and ignore that part.
@secondson saidSo a person can be a Christian without obeying Christ's commandments? There'll be "chastisement" and a lack of "fellowship" but not obeying Christ's commandments does not make one not-a-Christian, is that what yoy mean?
That's not what I said.
Firstly, one must be "born again", then one is a Christian.
Secondly, one must obey in order to have the kind of fellowship that only a Christian can have with God.
Without obedience the Christian is subject to God's chastisement. Not punishment. "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
16 Nov 20
@fmf saidThat definition is fine. Not all Christians will be in the Kingdom of God as Jesus clearly said. Christians will come calling Lord Lord, and because they are workers of iniquity, who choose not to obey and keep the commandments, Jesus will cast them out.
So a person can be a Christian without obeying Christ's commandments? There'll be "chastisement" and a lack of "fellowship" but not obeying Christ's commandments does not make one not-a-Christian, is that what yoy mean?
16 Nov 20
@secondson saidIts a church thing, we understand.
It's a Christian thing. You wouldn't understand. 😄
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16 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidHair successfully split!
The verse is true of course. However we are speaking of different things.
My verse from Matt 25 speaks of eternal life in the Kingdom of God, in which Jesus speaks clearly of who gets in and who is cast out.
Your verse is from the writings of Paul who speaks of being saved. Both are true but saved is NOT ETERNAL LIFE in the Kingdom of God.
Pau ...[text shortened]... fact speak of eternal life in the Kingdom of God but you choose to cherry pick and ignore that part.
Let’s leave it there, I’m happy with that.
16 Nov 20
@divegeester saidWho is the cherry picker now. Paul explains what is saved, and what is inheritance in the kingdom of God. Two different things. You choose the easy doctrine, that makes you feel nice and warm inside.
Hair successfully split!
Let’s leave it there, I’m happy with that.
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16 Nov 20
2 edits
@fmf saidI’m not answering for SecondSon, just putting my two penny worth in.
So a person can be a Christian without obeying Christ's commandments? There'll be "chastisement" and a lack of "fellowship" but not obeying Christ's commandments does not make one not-a-Christian, is that what yoy mean?
Salvation: eternal life is FREE, it is a “gift of God” received through faith. It is accompanied by an ongoing, and also a periodic filling of the spirit. Scripture calls this “power”. It is power to overcome the carnal instincts and it is accessed through faith. This is scripturally sound.
Discipleship: following Jesus is obedience in following his teachings, the leading of the spirit and doing good works. This is costly in terms of what one might have to REPENT from but the given power (as explained above) is an enabler. “Without this it is impossible to please God”. This is also scripturally sound.
In short, eternal life I’d FREE. But discipleship can cost a person everything. This is also scripturally sound.
So what goes wrong?
Paul explains it in his epistle to the Galatians 5:13 where he warns readers not to use their freedom from sin and condemnation, as a licence to indulge the carnal nature.
What happens is that Christians indulge their freedom to do nothing. I do this, it’s a sorry situation. But the sorry situation does not mean that the doctrine is wrong.