1. Joined
    14 Aug '06
    Moves
    8788
    09 Sep '06 23:30
    According to the Christian stanpoint, it seems to differ on what salvation is, how to get there, and when it happens. This thread was opened for this debate specifically. Thanks for your time brethren. Grace and peace to you all.
  2. Joined
    14 Aug '06
    Moves
    8788
    09 Sep '06 23:47
    I don't think baptism is needed for salvation. It is a wish not a commandment of God.

    I Peter 3:21
    "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Also, both xpoferon and dj2becker haven't brought up the context of that day in referral to baptism. Nevertheless, once I have an answer for those verses proving the necessity of baptism for salvation, then I will post again.
  3. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    09 Sep '06 23:57
    Originally posted by ngeisler88
    I don't think baptism is needed for salvation. It is a wish not a commandment of God.

    I Peter 3:21
    "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Also, both xpoferon and dj2becker haven't brought up the context of that da ...[text shortened]... wer for those verses proving the necessity of baptism for salvation, then I will post again.
    Hi ngeisler88 ,

    I think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 are commandments. I humbly think those statments are clear.

    As you quoted, I Peter 3:21 also states "baptism now saves you"; I think it's quite clear.

    Os course if one gets baptized, but doesn't have faith/belief or repentance, one is not saved.

    The Bible speaks about several conditions for salvation; if one follows just one or two, or few, but not all, than one is in a serious danger, according to the Bible.

    In the book of Acts, baptism is prevalent.
  4. Donationkirksey957
    Outkast
    With White Women
    Joined
    31 Jul '01
    Moves
    91452
    10 Sep '06 00:09
    Originally posted by xpoferens
    Hi ngeisler88 ,

    I think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 are commandments. I humbly think those statments are clear.

    As you quoted, I Peter 3:21 also states "baptism now saves you"; I think it's quite clear.

    Os course if one gets baptized, but doesn't have faith/belief or repentance, one is not saved.

    The Bible speaks about several conditions for salva ...[text shortened]... s in a serious danger, according to the Bible.

    In the book of Acts, baptism is prevalent.
    What about the taking up serpents and drinking poison part in verse 18?
  5. Joined
    14 Aug '06
    Moves
    8788
    10 Sep '06 00:10
    Heres my answer to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 -

    "Problem: Peter seems to be saying that those who responded hat to repent and be baptized before they could receive the Holy Spirit. But this is contrary to the teaching of Paul that baptism is not part of the Gospel (I Cor. 1:17) and that we are saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:4 and Eph. 2:8-9).

    Solution: This is resolved when we consider the possible meaning of being baptized "for" the remission of sins in light of its usage, the whole context, and the rest of Scripture. Consider the following:

    First, the word "for" (eis) can mean "with a view to" or even "because of." In this case, water baptism would be because they had been saved, not in order to be saved.

    Second, people are saved by receiving God's word, and Peter's audience "glady received his word" before they were baptized (Acts 2:41).

    Third, verse 44 speaks of "all who believed" as constituting the ealry church, not all those who were baptized.

    Fourth, leter, those who believed Peter's message clearly received the Holy Spirit before they wer baptized. Peter said, "Can anyonre forbid water, that there should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we hav?" (Acts 10:47

    Fifth, Paul saparates baptism from the Gospel, saying, "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel" (I cor. 1:17). But it is the Gospel which saves us (Rom. 1:16). Therefore, baptism is not part of what saves us.

    Sixth, Jesus referred to baptism as a work of righteousness (Matt. 3:15). But the Bible declares it is "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5).

    Seventh, not once in the entire Gospel of Johm, written explicitly so that people could believe and be saved (John 20:31), does it give baptism as part of the condition of salvation. It simply says over and over that people should "believe" and e saved (cf. John 3:16, 18, 36).

    In view of all these factors it seem best to understand Peter's statement like this: "Repent and be baptized with a view to the forgiveness of sins." That this view looked backward (to their sines being forgiven after they were saved) is made clear by the context and the rest of Scripture. Believing (or repenting) and being baptized are placed together, since baptism should follow belief. But nowhere does it say, "He who is not baptized will be condemned" (cf. Mark 16:16). Yet Jesus said emphatically that "he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). So neither Peter nor the rest of Scripture makes baptism a condition of salvation."

    Thank you for your time xpoforens.
  6. Joined
    14 Aug '06
    Moves
    8788
    10 Sep '06 00:17
    Originally posted by xpoferens
    Hi ngeisler88 ,

    I think Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 are commandments. I humbly think those statments are clear.

    As you quoted, I Peter 3:21 also states "baptism now saves you"; I think it's quite clear.

    Os course if one gets baptized, but doesn't have faith/belief or repentance, one is not saved.

    The Bible speaks about several conditions for salva ...[text shortened]... s in a serious danger, according to the Bible.

    In the book of Acts, baptism is prevalent.
    Yes, "baptism now saves you" but finish quoting what is says "NOT as the removal of dirt," referring to salvation, "but an appeal to God for good conscience," as fulfilling a wish, a guideline for us, not as fulfilling a commandment though necessary for salvation.

    I agree with you on the rest of what you said after that. (I'm just not sure about the book of Acts having baptism as "prevalent," not necessarily disputing it, I've just never studied it in that light.)
  7. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 00:22
    Hi dj2becker,

    Regarding your question about Ephesians 4:9, in the other thread...

    Please note what Jesus said about being in the tomb.

    Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    It deals with the same issue.

    Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

    Matthew "25:41" - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

    In Luke 16, in the story of the richman and Lazarus, you can see that Hades is divided between Paradise and Torment.
  8. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 00:27
    Originally posted by ngeisler88
    Yes, "baptism now saves you" but finish quoting what is says "NOT as the removal of dirt," referring to salvation, "but an appeal to God for good conscience," as fulfilling a wish, a guideline for us, not as fulfilling a commandment though necessary for salvation.

    I agree with you on the rest of what you said after that. (I'm just not sure about the bo ...[text shortened]... "prevalent," not necessarily disputing it, I've just never studied it in that light.)
    Hi ngeisler88,

    It has been an interesting conversation.

    Thanks for your time too.

    I agree with the whole statement in I Peter; but since I agree with the whole, I cannot exclude "baptism now saves you".

    Thanks for your previous post; I'll have a look at it now.
  9. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 00:42
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    What about the taking up serpents and drinking poison part in verse 18?
    Hi kirksey957,

    The apostles and those to whom they imposed their hands, had several gifts of the Holy Spirit, so that people could know they were messengers of the Son of God.

    Notice the following episode...

    Acts 28:3 "And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    4 And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
    5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
    6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god."

    People could, by these evidences, see that the Apostles had something that only God could bestow; these evidences helped people believe.

    I believe I Corinthians 13, says that these gifts are over, and are not available nowadays.
  10. Standard memberPalynka
    Upward Spiral
    Halfway
    Joined
    02 Aug '04
    Moves
    8702
    10 Sep '06 00:55
    Originally posted by ngeisler88
    What is salvation?
    Wine.
  11. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 01:11
    Originally posted by ngeisler88
    Heres my answer to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 -

    "Problem: Peter seems to be saying that those who responded hat to repent and be baptized before they could receive the Holy Spirit. But this is contrary to the teaching of Paul that baptism is not part of the Gospel (I Cor. 1:17) and that we are saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:4 and Eph. 2:8-9).

    Solution: ...[text shortened]... a condition of salvation."

    Thank you for your time xpoforens.
    Hi ngeisler88,

    At this stage, please allow me to answer just the first part of you statement; later I'll comment the reminder.

    As you know, the Bible is God breathed and it doesn't contradict itself.

    If some passages mention baptism and other mention something else as essential to salvation, I think the conclusion is that all is necessary.

    The epistles have a global scope but were initially written to the believing brethren. They knew about baptism, so the writers not always mentioned baptism, since it was implicit.

    Regarding I Cor. 1:17, if you see the context, you will notice that Paul is not condemning baptism; all he is saying is that his main mission is to be an Apostle and preach (mainly to the gentiles), while others could baptize.

    Paul is urging for unity, because some were claiming that because they were baptized by this or that one, they were theirs.

    Paul is saying that they are all from Christ.


    Regarding Faith an Works... in the following passage Jesus refers to faith/belief as being a work.

    John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

    In Ephesian is written "by grace are ye saved through faith".

    Salvation is by grace, and we cannot buy it by works, but, because we are saved, we must do works. Not the works of the Old Testament, but works meet of repentance; we must produce the fruits of the Spirit.

    Nowhere in the Bible is mentioned that salvation is by faith only, actually, just the oposite is stated.

    James 2:24 - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only".

    And this one... notice "work out your own salvation".

    Philipians 2:12 "- Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

    Take care.
  12. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 02:39
    Originally posted by ngeisler88
    Heres my answer to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 -

    "Problem: Peter seems to be saying that those who responded hat to repent and be baptized before they could receive the Holy Spirit. But this is contrary to the teaching of Paul that baptism is not part of the Gospel (I Cor. 1:17) and that we are saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:4 and Eph. 2:8-9).

    Solution: ...[text shortened]... a condition of salvation."

    Thank you for your time xpoforens.
    Hi again,

    First

    The word "for" (eis) is used hundreds of times in the New Testament, always with forward looking.

    Please notice this passage...

    Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    The word "eis" is used, with the same meaning as in Acts 2:38.

    The following link has an article that deals with this subject:

    http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_preposition_eis_in_acts_238

    Second

    Regarding Acts 2:41, those who "gladly received the word" were baptized, why? Because they believed (Mark 16:16).

    Third

    Regarding Acts 2:44 ("all who believed"😉, one cannot remove a verse out of its context. Its close context refers to the ones that believed and were baptized, so, the ones that believed, were added to the Church, by baptism.

    If a person takes a verse of the Bible independently of its context, that person can have the Bible as saying strange things, as the following:

    I Corinthians 15:18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

    Context is very important.

    Fourth

    In Acts 10:47, Luke (the writer) is describing the conversion of Cornelius and his household, the first gentiles to be converted.

    It describes a peculiar and unique situation in which God bestowed the Holy Spirit, so that the apostles could see that the gentiles could be Christians as well. The apostles were skeptics regarding this issue, so they received a evidence that is was more than correct to baptize these gentiles.

    If you read the whole book of Acts, you'll see that this is a unique situation, with the purpose mentioned above.

    Remember, Acts 2:38 mentions that baptism is for one to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, not before, but after (baptism).

    Fifth

    I've already made a comment on I Cor. 1:17, but regarding Romans 1:16, naturally, I totally agree.

    However, look at this passage:

    II Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

    The gospel needs to be obeyed, and baptism is one of its commandments.

    Sixth

    Jesus referred to baptism as rigteousness, not as a work of rightousness (Matt. 3:15).

    Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

    Paul in his letter to Titus is saying that we are saved by God's grace/mercy, not by works. Sure, if it wasn't by Christ's sacrifice, baptism would have no meaning. However, notice the statement in the same verse, "by the washing of regeneration"; don't you think "by the washing of regeneration" means baptism?

    Seventh

    The gospel of John is one of four gospels, and one in many New Testament books; should we discharge what the other books have to say about any issue, and in this case, about salvation?

    The gospels complement each other, the same way as the epistles and Revelation complement the gospels.

    You stated the following:

    But nowhere does it say, "He who is not baptized will be condemned" (cf. Mark 16:16). Yet Jesus said emphatically that "he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). So neither Peter nor the rest of Scripture makes baptism a condition of salvation."

    I think we are both logical guys, otherwise we would not be playing chess; as well, I'm a computer programmer, used to use logic every day.

    If Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved", do you think he would as well need to say "He who is not baptized will be condemned"?

    I think He only needed to say "but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    Why? Because if one doesn't believe, why would one want to be baptized?

    Upon believing, one will be willing to obey and take the next steps. If one doesn't believe, he/she won't even consider another step.

    Consider the following sentence:

    If I have a job and I'm punctual, I'll be promoted; if I don't have a job, I'll be in misery.

    See the analogy? In this context, I can only "be punctual" if I have a job; if I don't have a job, the second part of the sentence doesn't even need to mention "punctuality".

    It is the same with believing and being baptized.

    We should understand what "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved" means.

    Remember, it is an AND, not an OR.

    Take care.
  13. Joined
    15 Sep '04
    Moves
    7051
    10 Sep '06 02:54
    Originally posted by xpoferens
    Hi again,

    [b]First


    The word "for" (eis) is used hundreds of times in the New Testament, always with forward looking.

    Please notice this passage...

    Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    The word "eis" is used, with the same meaning as in Acts 2:38.

    The following li ...[text shortened]... ber, it is an AND, not an OR.

    Take care.[/b]
    You've cited both pre and post Jewish-Christian schism writings (that is writing before and after Christianity became separate from Judaism). This makes it ambiguous as to what "baptism" might mean. I think ngeisler88 might have meant that we the "ritual" baptism is unnecassary, while the more virtical baptism (like a born-again experience) is just an expression of faith - and thus consitutes the belief though which we are saved.
  14. Lisbon
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    2972
    10 Sep '06 03:07
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    You've cited both pre and post Jewish-Christian schism writings (that is writing before and after Christianity became separate from Judaism). This makes it ambiguous as to what "baptism" might mean. I think ngeisler88 might have meant that we the "ritual" baptism is unnecassary, while the more virtical baptism (like a born-again experience) is just an expression of faith - and thus consitutes the belief though which we are saved.
    Hi Conrau K,

    I don't know where you stand regarding the Bible and Christianity.

    Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

    I'm only trying to say what the Bible says regarding salvation, and in this case, regarding baptism.

    Baptism is not a translation, but a transliteration of the Greek (koine) "baptizo", which means "to be immersed".

    If the Bible says baptism is necessary for salvation and for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, ...), then that's what we should do.

    I do not want to enter into a philosophical debate, since the Gospel of Christ is simple.

    II Corinthians 11:3 "- But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

    The Bible was not written so that only rocket scientists could understand it, but so that everyone could read, understand and obey its simple message.

    Regards
  15. Joined
    15 Sep '04
    Moves
    7051
    10 Sep '06 03:291 edit
    Originally posted by xpoferens
    Hi Conrau K,

    I don't know where you stand regarding the Bible and Christianity.

    Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

    I'm only trying to say what the Bible says regarding salvation, and in this case, regarding baptism.

    Baptism is not a translation, but a transliteration of the Greek (koine) "baptizo", which means "to be immersed it, but so that everyone could read, understand and obey its simple message.

    Regards
    Hello to you to,

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the inspired word of God". My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is present in the scripture, but I do not believe this implies the literal truth of each word. I am Catholic (not sure if that's a problem or not) and identify with the Spiritual Order called the Carmelites. Over the past Centuries the Carmelites have learnt their lesson in taking a literal interpretation. Following their endorsemnt into the Catholic Church in 1246 they promoted the Order throughout Europe using a document which said, to the effect, that they were the descendent hermits of Elijah. Historically, this claim is false. But Carmelites have learnt how this document, while historically invalid, articulates many of the fundamentals of Carmelite spirituality and what it means to be Carmelite. So in regards to the bible, while I agree it is "inspired", there is a particular science required to interpreting it - or otherwise we can falsely construe what the original authors were trying to communicate and mistake the meaning of their words.

    It is very important to consider when the the gospel or epistle under scrutiny was written. I don't dusagree with you on the "transliteration" of baptism from the Greek. But the meaning of the baptism changed after the Church moved from Judaism. Baptism has different meanings in different periods of times. All I'm asking is which meaning are you using? If you are using the literal rendering (to be immersed), then you are referring to a "ritual" act of dunking the person beneath water. Both Acts and Paul were referring to a baptism by the Holy Spirit. Essentially, you and ngeisler88 have been arguing about different things.

    But in regards to Christ being simple, well, that's a bit iffy. Throughout Luke's gospel there is frequent references to the disciples not understanding Jesus. And in Mark's gospel, Jesus is often frustrated at his disciples lack of understanding.
    How to act, behave, believe and all types of theologies, are not simple. Chirst is simple. He is the sacrifice, the Pascal Lamb who takes away sins. But as for salvation and rituals, that is not simple. It takes an intense discipline of study to really understand these and the New Testament.

    Peace.
Back to Top