What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

REV Commentary for: John 8:58


Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am the one.”

“I am the one.” Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., Yahweh , the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the Old Testament), so he must be God. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The Greek that is translated as “I am” is egō eime, and it was a common Greek way to identify oneself. For example, only ten verses after Jesus said, “I am,” the man who Jesus healed who had been born blind identified himself by saying exactly what Jesus said; egō eime (“I am;” John 9:9). Thus, Jesus and the man born blind both identified themselves by egō eime “I am” only ten verses apart.

Sadly, unless a person looks at the Greek text, he will never see that “I am” was a common Greek way to identify oneself. In what seems to be a clear case of Trinitarian bias in translating the Greek text, when Jesus says, egō eime “I am” in John 8:58, our English Bibles read, “I am.” But when Jesus says egō eime in other places in the New Testament, or other people say egō eime “I am”, the Greek phrase gets translated differently. So, for example, some English translations of what the man born blind said are: “I am the one” (or “I’m the one;” CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET); “I am he” (BBE; ERV; KJV; YLT); “It is I” (Darby); and, “I am the man” (ESV; NIV). The only English Bible we know of that has “I am” in John 9:9 is the New American Bible.

Jesus came "from with" the Father. He came from the Father and yet He came WITH the Father.

John 6:46 says

" Not that anyone has seen the Father, except Him Who is from God, He has seen the Father."

The word there in the Greek for "from" is transliterated "para". This measn "by the side of". The sense of the word is "from with".

The Son of God is not only from God, but also is with God. While Jesus is from God, Jesus is at all times with God.

Below according to the word para we also that Jesus is truly "from with" the God the Father.

" But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me." (John 8:16)

He is from and with the Father.

" And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." (John 8:29)

He is from God, yet He is God-man.

" For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from [para -from with] God. " (John 16:27)

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] So my understanding is not based on what others say about Christ, but what Christ says about himself. I would not allow statements made by the Pharisees [that Jesus is God], or statements made by Thomas { that Jesus is God], override what Jesus himself said that God is his Father and he is the Son. Jesus is my authority and my guide.

Probably for ...[text shortened]... ut this thread in on the Trinity for the Gospel's proclamation and the experience of the saved.

Becoming saturated with the Spirit of Christ does not come by saying 'Lord Lord' over and over for 5 minutes or any of your suggested methods. As usual your doctrine and teachings are not of Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
There is plenty of post on practical spirituality. You just don't want to take the practical helps.

I started a thread on [b]"Calling Lord, Lord" It was very basic and very practical.

I started a thread on "Prayreading the Word". It is very practical.

I started a thread way back which had something to do with realizing that without Gra ...[text shortened]... Holy Spirit has its aim in bringing us into the experience of God.

Each is described as God.[/b]

These are not "practical" things at all, sonship. You typed not one word about living a good and compassionate life, not a single word about deeds, about interactions with others, about changing one's environment for the better. You just typed stuff about recitations of doctrine, chants, and thinking fantastical things about yourself.

Originally posted by sonship
Your question above to me was essentially - "So if you don't have this Trinity dogma you're not saved."

And I note that you have then typed several sentences that did not answer it. Here it is again: Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?

Originally posted by sonship
Amen all the way.

I turned my heart to the Lord in all those wonderful verses and enjoyed truth and the God of truth.

It is simple who raised Jesus from the dead.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am the one.”

That is a paraphrase. Point out which two words in original Greek are translated "the one".

“I am the one.” Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., Yahweh , the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the Old Testament), so he must be God. Saying “I am” does not make a person God.

In this verse there is little argue about. And here they picked up stones to stone Him PRECISELY because they understood Him to be saying that He was God.

They were stoning Him for blasphemy. But He was the I am of Exodus, the God who Israel and of Moses.

" And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." (Exodus 3:14)

In this context and in the quotation of Jesus in John 8 "I AM" absolutely means God's name.

" I AM has sent me to you."

The Greek that is translated as “I am” is egō eime, and it was a common Greek way to identify oneself. For example, only ten verses after Jesus said, “I am,” the man who Jesus healed who had been born blind identified himself by saying exactly what Jesus said; egō eime (“I am;” John 9:9). Thus, Jesus and the man born blind both identified themselves by egō eime “I am” only ten verses apart.

This interpretation of John 8:58 is nothing more than a flat out rejection of John's central thesis - "the Word was with God and the Word was God.... And the Word became flesh"

You are saying that you know better than the Apostle John concerning the One about Whom his gospel was written.

Sadly, unless a person looks at the Greek text, he will never see that “I am” was a common Greek way to identify oneself. In what seems to be a clear case of Trinitarian bias in translating the Greek text, when Jesus says, egō eime “I am” in John 8:58, our English Bibles read, “I am.” But when Jesus says egō eime in other places in the New Testament, or other people say egō eime “I am”, the Greek phrase gets translated differently. So, for example, some English translations of what the man born blind said are: “I am the one” (or “I’m the one;” CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET); “I am he” (BBE; ERV; KJV; YLT); “It is I” (Darby); and, “I am the man” (ESV; NIV). The only English Bible we know of that has “I am” in John 9:9 is the New American Bible.

There are many times when Jesus said "I am ..." something. In this passage He simply says "I AM". And the Jews knew exactly what He was proclaiming.

By verse 58 the Jews could contain themselves no longer. He had previously said MANY things for which extreme tension arose from them against them. They had plenty of things for which they could have been angered at Him.

1) He accused them of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
2) He said they would die in their sins (vs.21,24).
3) He said that they were still like slaves in bondage (vs.32,33).
4) He told them that they were slaves of sin (vs.34).
5) He exposed them that they were out to kill him (vs. 37,40).
6) He told them that they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) He said that instead being Abraham's sons their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) He said that they were not of God (vs.47).
9) He exposed them as trying to dishonoring Him (vs.49).
10) He exposed them as not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) He charged them for lying (vs.55).

Why didn't the Jews pick up stones for any one of these things ? It was the crowning saying that He was the [b]"I AM"{/b] of God Himself that was the crowning intolerable teaching for which they immediately sought to stone Him.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is simple who raised Jesus from the dead.

God raised Jesus from the dead.

God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

Yes, clearly the Father is said to have raised Jesus. But notice also that the NT says that the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is also called the Spirit of Christ and Who is "Christ".

See Romans 8:9-11. So it is rather mysterious.

The indwelling One who lives in the Christians is "the Spirit of God" is "the Spirit of Christ" who is also "Christ" who is also "the Spirit of the one Who raised Jesus from the dead".

So God is rather mysterious but experiential. And we should not be surprised that Jesus said that He would raise up the temple of His body in three days. He is God incarnate.

Originally posted by sonship
God raised Jesus from the dead.

God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

Yes, clearly the Father is said to have raised Jesus. But notice also that the NT says that the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is also called [b]the Spirit of Christ and Who is "Christ".

See Romans 8:9-11. So it is rather mysterious.

The indwelling One ...[text shortened]... hat Jesus said that He would raise up the temple of His body in three days. He is God incarnate.[/b]

John 10:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Originally posted by FMF
These are not "practical" things at all, sonship. You typed not one word about living a good and compassionate life, not a single word about deeds, about interactions with others, about changing one's environment for the better. You just typed stuff about recitations of doctrine, chants, and thinking fantastical things about yourself.

You are asking him to speak of things alien to his religion. He is in a religion that tells him:
- that he is saved eternally and not even God can revoke it,
- that doing good works is trying to earn his salvation and therefore must be avoided,
- that he WILL DO the good works God has for him to do [translated: anything he does is good]
- sin is not held against him.

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am the one.”

That is a paraphrase. Point out which two words in original Greek are translated "the one".

[quote]
“I am the one.” Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., Yahweh , the God who revealed Himself to Mose ...[text shortened]... mself that was the crowning intolerable teaching for which they immediately sought to stone Him.

This is my interlinear Hebrew/Greek.... It is very simple to verify that only in John 8:58 it simply says "I AM" all capitals. But in every other usage of Egoó eimi it adds I am he, or I am the one. The Trinity bias is obvious.
You can call it a paraphrase or deny it all you want but it is not honest.



John 8:58
58 said unto them, Jesus Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
2036 846 2424 281 281 3004 5213 4250 11 1096 1473 1510
 Eípen  autoís  Ieesoús  Ameén  ameén  légoo  humín  prín  Abraám  genésthai  egoó  eimí


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

Mark 13:6
6 For many shall come in name, my saying, I am Christ; and many. shall deceive
<9999> 4183 2064 1909 3588 3686 3450 3004 3754 1473 1510 9999 2532 4183 4105
 Polloí  eleúsontai  epí  toó  onómatí  mou  légontes  hóti  Egoó  eimi  kaí  polloús  planeésousin


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

John 9:8-9

8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, "Is not this he who sat and begged?"

9 Some said, "This is he." Others said, "He is like him."

He said, "I am he.
NKJV
John 9:9

9 Some said, This is he: others said, like him: He is but he said, I am he.
243 3004 3754 3778 2076 243 3004 3780 235 3664 846 2076 9999 1565 3004 3754 1473 1510 9999
 álloi  élegon  hóti  Hoútós  estin  álloi  élegon  Ouchí  allá  hómoios  autoó  estin  Ekeínos  élegen  hóti  Egoó  eimi


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

There are many more examples if you wish for me to post them.

Originally posted by KellyJay
John 10:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Would I like to spend a half hour prayreading with you. Any passage you like. We'd get built up together.

Amen.

YouTube

Originally posted by checkbaiter

This is my interlinear Hebrew/Greek.... It is very simple to verify that only in John 8:58 it simply says "I AM" all capitals. But in every other usage of Egoó eimi it adds I am he, or I am the one. The Trinity bias is obvious.

It is an added emphasis to capitalize I AM in some English versions.
I would not deny that preference is indicated there.

But why not? The construction is more complex then other places where Jesus simply says "I am" this or that. It is "Before Abraham was, I AM" Or "Before Abraham came into being, I am."

Now if you supply the word "He:" as a paraphrase ( and sometimes paraphrase can be useful. I did not say they were all only bad), You arrive at "Before Abraham was, I am [He]"

What have you accomplished by doing this supplying of the pronoun after "I am" ? You still end up with Jesus saying He is He before Abraham came into being. And you still have an angry Jewish crowd wanting to stone Him for blasphemy.

So your appealing to other places in the NT where Jesus says "I am ..." only exposes YOUR bias to teach an incomplete Deity of Jesus Christ.

You can call it a paraphrase or deny it all you want but it is not honest.

Some paraphrased New Testaments are useful if you keep in mine a straight translation should be your first order. Not all paraphrased NT are not good.

What I said about the New King James Version being a paraphrase I will retract until I do further research. I think I would own a New King James Version . I do not have a similar feeling about the New International Version or the lattest revised NIV.

John 8:58
58 said unto them, Jesus Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
2036 846 2424 281 281 3004 5213 4250 11 1096 1473 1510
Eípen autoís Ieesoús Ameén ameén légoo humín prín Abraám genésthai egoó eimí

See? "Before Abraham was, I am" So why not emphasis with a capital "I AM". For the meaning is that He IS even before the patriarch Abraham was or came into being.

Does this agree with the Word was God (John 1:1) ?
Or does this disagree with "the Word was God" ?

It agrees.
And i also agrees with Jesus saying that He who has seen Him has seen the Father.

" He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say Show us the Father? (John 14:9b)

[b]" Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? " (v.10a)

Jesus is the mingling of God and man.

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

Mark 13:6
6 For many shall come in name, my saying, I am Christ; and many. shall deceive
<9999> 4183 2064 1909 3588 3686 3450 3004 3754 1473 1510 9999 2532 4183 4105
Polloí eleúsontai epí toó onómatí mou légontes hóti Egoó eimi kaí polloús planeésousin

The construction of this sentence is also different from saying "Before Abraham came into being, I AM."

Many will come saying I am [he] or even I am ...". The equivalence would only be valid if Jesus said something like - "before they come, they are" or before they come they will say I am ..."

Every other "I am ..." in the New Testament does not nullify that Jesus claims to be the One who is before Abraham was.

And for Him to BE before Abraham agrees with Thomas confession Him - "My Lord and my God".

You want the Apostle John to be YOUR student. Instead you should learn from the Apostle John, the Beloved disciples, so close to Jesus; so close to the heart of Jesus.

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

John 9:8-9

8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, "Is not this he who sat and begged?"

9 Some said, "This is he." Others said, "He is like him."

He said, "I am he.
NKJV
John 9:9

The construction is not the same. Here the healed blind man did not say anything like "before Jesus was ... I am he".

9 Some said, This is he: others said, like him: He is but he said, I am he.
243 3004 3754 3778 2076 243 3004 3780 235 3664 846 2076 9999 1565 3004 3754 1473 1510 9999
álloi élegon hóti Hoútós estin álloi élegon Ouchí allá hómoios autoó estin Ekeínos élegen hóti Egoó eimi


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])

There are many more examples if you wish for me to post them.

None of the examples have the same kind of construction.

Before Abraham was, before Abraham came into being ... I AM [whatever you'd like to supply].

Let this sink into your ears -

"BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS ... I AM"

Some translations are justified to capitalize the I AM for theological emphasis.
The "bias" is justified. It is at least understandable.

"He was in the world, and the world CAME INTO BEING THROUGH HIM, yet the world did not know Him." (v.10)

This truth is confirmed out of the mouth of Jesus when He says that before Abraham was He is "I AM"

" The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham ?

Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:57,58)

Forget about Jesus being not yet fifty years old.
Forget about Abraham living centuries before Jesus was born.
It doesn't MATTER how old the man Jesus is.
Before Abraham came into be, Jesus is the "I AM".

The effect of the passage cannot be nullified by checkbaiter supplying many other instances of "ego eimi" all throughout the Greek New Testament.

Checkbaiter, in this chapter is Jesus before Abraham or not ?

If the chapter only means Jesus is preeminent to Abraham why does the argument develop over the age of Jesus as compared to Abraham?

"The Jews then said to him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" (v.57)

The essence of the debate at this point is WHO CAME FIRST - Abraham or the under fifty year old Jesus ?

Before Abraham, this under fifty year old man Jesus, before them, is the ever existing and self existing eternal God.