Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I assume you are asking if one can do the will of Christ without knowing Him.

"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

So we agree. They are those who do the will of Christ without knowing Him .. much like the Good Samaritan.

Again I posed this verse to you some time ago and you ignored it. This passage suggests that there are Gentiles who perform the good works of the law without knowing the law (of Moses), but they do it because the works of the law are written in their hearts:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

Seems to me that there are some who without knowing Christ will throough their conscience do good works and they will be judged and be justified according to their works. So actually knowing Christ is not necessarily a prerequisite for salvation. But instead .. its doing good works ... thats what gives salvation. Since that by doing good works you become Christ's brother and sister and mother.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So we agree. They are those who do the will of Christ without knowing Him .. much like the Good Samaritan.

Again I posed this verse to you some time ago and you ignored it. This passage suggests that there are Gentiles who perform the good works of the law without knowing the law (of Moses), but they do it because the works of the law are written in thei ...[text shortened]... es salvation. Since that by doing good works you become Christ's brother and sister and mother.

Doh!

They are those who do the will of Christ without knowing Him .. much like the Good Samaritan.
The illustration of the Good Samaritan was a lesson on the intent of the Law, which by the time of Christ had been twisted, manipulated and confined to a tortured caricature of its purpose. You're doing the same by concluding that some type of mimicry will lead to eternal life.

Seems to me that there are some who without knowing Christ will throough their conscience do good works and they will be judged and be justified according to their works.
You nailed the issue with your first three words here 'seems to me.' From there, it all goes downhill. No one who is judged according to their works will be justified. We are justified apart from our works. Christ Himself is our justification, the only propitiation possible.

So actually knowing Christ is not necessarily a prerequisite for salvation. But instead .. its doing good works ... thats what gives salvation. Since that by doing good works you become Christ's brother and sister and mother.
Wrong input, flawed conclusion. What is God's will? That's the question you must first answer.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Doh!

[b]They are those who do the will of Christ without knowing Him .. much like the Good Samaritan.
The illustration of the Good Samaritan was a lesson on the intent of the Law, which by the time of Christ had been twisted, manipulated and confined to a tortured caricature of its purpose. You're doing the same by concluding that some type of mim ...[text shortened]... input, flawed conclusion. What is God's will? That's the question you must first answer.[/b]

The story of the Good Samaritan was in response to two questions:
1. Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 2. Who is my neighbour?

Clearly the hero in the story must therefore
1. be a good neighour
2. get eternal life

... otherwise the parable is in vain? Dont you think?

So what is your interpretation of the passage which I quoted from Romans 2? Or is that another one you choose to ignore?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Until one understands the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the teachings cannot be seen in the proper context.

Salvation comes not through the blood of Christ, but through emulating Jesus. The Christian religion has put such a heavy emphasis upon the mythological attributes of Jesus that it obscures the moral attributes to a very large degree.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The story of the Good Samaritan was in response to two questions:
1. Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 2. Who is my neighbour?

Clearly the hero in the story must therefore
1. be a good neighour
2. get eternal life

... otherwise the parable is in vain? Dont you think?

So what is your interpretation of the passage which I quoted from Romans 2? Or is that another one you choose to ignore?

As has been said many, many times on the various threads of this forum, the Gospels are--- by far--- the most difficult of all portions of Scripture to accurately interpret. To ascertain the message requires more than the ability to read the language on its surface.

So what is your interpretation of the passage which I quoted from Romans 2? Or is that another one you choose to ignore?
Yes, this is one I choose to ignore... until such time as you choose to stop ignoring the question I put to you first, found on the first page of this thread regarding the one flesh.

Originally posted by rwingett
Salvation comes not through the blood of Christ, but through emulating Jesus. The Christian religion has put such a heavy emphasis upon the mythological attributes of Jesus that it obscures the moral attributes to a very large degree.

That your take flies in the face of orthodox Christianity--- let alone all of Scripture--- is of no surprise. According to you, His presence on the planet was for the sole purpose of instituting socialism!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
As has been said many, many times on the various threads of this forum, the Gospels are--- by far--- the most difficult of all portions of Scripture to accurately interpret. To ascertain the message requires more than the ability to read the language on its surface.

[b]So what is your interpretation of the passage which I quoted from Romans 2? Or is th ...[text shortened]... question I put to you first, found on the first page of this thread regarding the one flesh.[/b]

I answered your question on one flesh.

You asked:

"When a man and a woman are joined in marriage, are they considered one flesh?"

My answer :

When a man and a woman are married they are considered as one flesh in a figurative since as a married couple they have one purpose. They are not one flesh in the literal sense. They cannot be one person, they are still two distinct and separate entities.

The same with God and Christ. God is the head of Christ. They have one purpose and they are one in that sense but they cannot be one in the literal sense ie God is Christ and Christ is God. They are two separate and distinct entities.

Christ said he is one with the disciples. However he was still distinct and separate from his disciples.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That your take flies in the face of orthodox Christianity--- let alone all of Scripture--- is of no surprise. According to you, His presence on the planet was for the sole purpose of instituting socialism!

In a manner of speaking, yes. Orthodox Christianity is a fraud. Scripture is full of mythological concepts that originated after Jesus' death. But his preaching against the rich and his preferential option for the poor are still relevant today. It bears keeping in mind, though, that the socialism of Jesus is not at all synonymous with Marxism.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I answered your question on one flesh.

You asked:

"When a man and a woman are joined in marriage, are they considered one flesh?"

My answer :

When a man and a woman are married they are considered as one flesh in a figurative since as a married couple they have one purpose. They are not one flesh in the literal sense. They cannot be one person, ...[text shortened]... d he is one with the disciples. However he was still distinct and separate from his disciples.

=========================================
The same with God and Christ. God is the head of Christ. They have one purpose and they are one in that sense but they cannot be one in the literal sense ie God is Christ and Christ is God. They are two separate and distinct entities.

Christ said he is one with the disciples. However he was still distinct and separate from his disciples.
========================================

God's purpose is to dispense His life into man. For Christ to come to live in the believers is for God to come to live in the believers.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keepo My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The Father and the Son as the divine "WE" come to indwell the lover of Jesus, making him or her an abode.

When we notice Paul using certain terms interchangeably we see that for Christ to come into man is for God to come into man:

"But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Who is the One who indwells the believers ? He is the Spirit of God. He is also the Spirit of Christ. He is also Christ Himself. He is also the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. He is also the Father's Spirit.

When the Head of Christ comes to make an abode with me Christ comes to make an abode with me. When Christ comes to indwell me the Head of Christ comes to indwell me. I can detect no difference at all.

The Father definitely indwells the believers - "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:6)

The Father Who is the Head of Christ and is over all is in all the members of the church the Body of Christ, so says Ephesians 4:6. So this confirms that the Divine "WE" - the Father and the Son come to make an abode in the lovers of Jesus.

Within one lives the other. So though Father and Son are distinct they are not separate. They COINHERE each other.

I would ask Rajk999, if God and Christ are separate then what need is there for Christ to dwell in the believer if God dwells in the believer? If they are separate then should it not be enough that God indwells the believer without Christ ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I answered your question on one flesh.

You asked:

"When a man and a woman are joined in marriage, are they considered one flesh?"

My answer :

When a man and a woman are married they are considered as one flesh in a figurative since as a married couple they have one purpose. They are not one flesh in the literal sense. They cannot be one person, ...[text shortened]... d he is one with the disciples. However he was still distinct and separate from his disciples.

I answered your question on one flesh.
So you did. I must have missed it first time around.

The same with God and Christ. God is the head of Christ. They have one purpose and they are one in that sense but they cannot be one in the literal sense ie God is Christ and Christ is God. They are two separate and distinct entities.
I'm going to suggest that you have a ways to go in articulating the specifics of orthodox thinking. Your theology--- besides being off-base--- is too general to allow for any examination.

When I said earlier that previous conversations with you may have been abandoned, it was on the basis of those same conversations being futile--- certainly not because my position could not be articulated. In fact, the impetus for this thread was to flesh out the reactions any one would have toward the information put forth... and already, we are far afield from that objective.

Back to the point, what do you say to the information within the first post of this thread?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
As has been said many, many times on the various threads of this forum, the Gospels are--- by far--- the most difficult of all portions of Scripture to accurately interpret. ...

Are you suggesting that understanding the doctrine of Christ (and therefore salvation) is reserved for the intellectually gifted or the Bible scholar? 😀 Tell me thats not what you are implying !!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Until one understands the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the teachings cannot be seen in the proper context.

we have little knowledge of the person not even what he looked like. how he dressed did he enjoy games was he left or right handed could he write yet not one letter known. take the teachings then you will know him

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
..Back to the point, what do you say to the information within the first post of this thread?

You have a pretty short attention span for one so brilliant. I already asked where in the Bible there is support for

...Christ..., became man without ceasing to be God, ...

To which you replied with the predictable question about man and wife 'being one'.
I then explained the Bible is full of people being one.

Man and wife
Christ and his disciples
God and Christ
We are all one in Christ ... etc etc

It cannot possibly mean that we are all one physically.
Seems to me (I know you like that phrase.. 🙂) that you are in danger of becoming wise in your conceit and ignoring the simple teachings of Christ.
Something about you make me think of the Pharisees ... cant put my finger on it. 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are you suggesting that understanding the doctrine of Christ (and therefore salvation) is reserved for the intellectually gifted or the Bible scholar? 😀 Tell me thats not what you are implying !!

"The doctrine of Christ"
Exactly what do you mean by this? For even for the one who refuses to look any deeper into the Scriptures than the topical meanings thereof, it is readily apparent that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself spoke on many topics in addition to salvation.

The message of salvation--- the Good News part of the Gospels--- is a category of truth intended for one group of people, and only this group of people: unbelievers. Once a person is saved through acceptance of that gift, the remainder of Scripture becomes their palace. This is technically known as doctrine, and it is reserved solely for believers. An unbeliever cannot even begin to make sense of doctrine.

An unbeliever, however, can understand the basic message of salvation; this is all that is needed for them to make their decision. Believers who refuse to move on from salvation into the palace of doctrine will never move forward, will never understand the purpose of the majority of that palace and will never fail to twist, contort and misinterpret Scripture in order to maintain their retrogression. Ironically, the real joy is found by moving forward!

Intellectual prowess, while possibly somewhat satisfying for the person in possession of the same, is not the key which unlocks the door to understanding Scripture. Hell, there are thousands of Bible "scholars" whose intelligence effectively blocks them from entrance even into the lobby of salvation! The key to understanding Scripture begins with humility.

Originally posted by stoker
we have little knowledge of the person not even what he looked like. how he dressed did he enjoy games was he left or right handed could he write yet not one letter known. take the teachings then you will know him

Obviously, these aspects of His personhood are not in view, then are they? We are here discussing His position and His work, not trying to determine if He was any good at hopscotch or would have thought the Blazing Saddles campfire scene was funny.

Try to stay focused, stoker.