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    19 Apr '13 09:468 edits
    In the beginning God created a paradise that was to extend throughout the earth,
    man and women were to live indefinitely on that paradise. This was Gods original
    purpose. It remains unchanged.

    Humans sought independence from God aided by a satanic agency, established
    their own code of morality and questioned Gods universal sovereignty (right to
    rule). Sin (imperfection) entered into the world and thus through imperfection,
    sickness and ultimately death spread throughout humanity.

    In order to redress the balance and fulfil his own legal requirements (a life for a life)
    God promised a 'seed', which would propitiate (appropriate for) the perfect life that
    was forfeited by our first parents when they chose to rebel against Gods sovereignty
    (right to rule).

    This 'seed', was destined to come through the lineage of Abraham.

    The nation of Israel was designated by God as being a representative of his
    universal sovereignty. It produced an environment that should have been
    conducive to the acceptance of the 'seed', which God had prepared centuries earlier.

    The messiah, having a prehuman existence, was miraculously born, through a
    woman, into the nation of Israel. Jesus Christ was his name and he was destined to
    suffer a sacrificial death in order to give up his perfect human life as a propitiatory
    sacrifice to fulfil both the legal requirements (a life for a life) and to demonstrate
    that it was possible to maintain integrity to Gods sovereignty under all manner of
    adverse conditions thus sanctifying Gods name.

    Through his miraculous works and through his own resurrection from the dead,
    Christ offered a small token of what was to be accomplished through a much greater
    resurrection of all persons, both righteous and unrighteous who had lived prior to
    Christ and who had no knowledge of his existence.

    Upon being resurrected to Heaven, Christ subjected himself to God and
    offered the value of that sacrifice. All persons approaching God on the basis of the
    value of that sacrifice could receive forgiveness for sin, a cleansed conscience and
    enter into a relationship with God and have the prospect of attaining everlasting life,
    which was forfeited by Adam, once again.

    In order to form a basis for judgement and to try to reach as many persons as
    possible with the knowledge of the messiah, Christ instituted a program of public
    teaching, known as the Good News of Gods Kingdom which was to be spread
    throughout the earth by willing participants. Christ promised to be with those
    persons until the conclusion of the system.

    Upon his return to heaven (spiritual realm) and after his resurrection, Christ
    cleansed the heavens of rebellious spiritual entities and the original satanic agency
    was confined to the vicinity of the earth. Wars, famine, pestilence and disease
    ensued. These are signs which mark the beginning of the end of the present
    system.

    After the war of Armageddon (Gods war against the original satanic agencies and its
    supporters), the earth will be transformed once again into a paradise. Christ will
    apply the value of his propitiatory sacrifice and humans will gradually be brought
    back to perfection, thus sin (imperfection) will disappear, along with all adverse
    effects. Death and sickness will be eradicated.

    Christ will hand back the Kingdom to God, establishing Gods sovereignty (right to
    rule) once again. Gods name will have been sanctified. The earth will be a
    paradise once again.



    This to my knowledge is a fair and true representation of the Biblical message.

    *really teaches.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    19 Apr '13 10:18
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In the beginning God created a paradise that was to extend throughout the earth,
    man and women were to live indefinitely on that paradise. This was Gods original
    purpose. It remains unchanged.

    Humans sought independence from God aided by a satanic agency, established
    their own code of morality and questioned Gods universal sovereignty (ri ...[text shortened]... in.



    This to my knowledge is a fair and true representation of the Biblical message.
    This however is superfiscial. It only talks about returning to an Eden like paradise state. As if all God wants is for man to live everlastingly in a happy place.

    This is very man centered and does not touch the eternal purpose of God to dispense His own life and nature into man that God and man may be in a union of mingling.

    You do mention a kingdom of God. But the Bible closes with a MARRIAGE union between the Godman Jesus and the sons of God as the New Jerusalem - a tabercacle of God withing whom God dwells.

    The uncreated and eternal Divine Being sought from eternity to dispense Himself into man for a mingling of God and man.

    Watchtower only always teaches about a paradise earth restored to a Edenic condition.

    God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. Sons of God means that God has become human and humans have become God meeting together in a union - defined in the very person of the Firstborn Son of God Jesus Christ.

    How can humanity marry One unles they match that One?

    Actually most of what you have written is just the destiny of the nations around the New Jerusalem while the constituents of the New Jerusalem as Godmen conformed to the image of the Godman. This touches more of the eternal purpose of God.

    " ... all things work together for good to those who are love God, to those who are called according to HIS PURPOSE.

    Because tose whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

    And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30)


    The nations restored to an Edenic paradise is not the main element of God's eternal purpose. Those are the people who survive the great tribulation and are transfered into the millennial kingdom. They are those surrounding nations which are transfered also from the millennial kingdom into the eternal age.

    It is the center and capital of the New Jerusalem where the sons of God are the humanity mingled with divinity - "like Him" as God mingled with man in an "organic" union, to be the Bride and Wife of the incarnate God - matching Him, being His counterpart and even dwelling place.

    This is the central eternal purpose of God to dispense Himself into sons that God and man would be one.
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    19 Apr '13 10:292 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    This however is superfiscial. It only talks about returning to an Eden like paradise state. As if all God wants is for man to live everlastingly in a happy place.

    This is very man centered and does not touch the eternal purpose of God to dispense His own life and nature into man that God and man may be in a union of mingling.

    You do mention a kin ntral eternal purpose of God to dispense Himself into sons that God and man would be one.
    On the contrary, I have a Biblical reference for every single assertion. I wont have
    the Biblical message sullied with any talk of mingling, esoteric mysticism or extra
    biblical neo platonic paganism.

    The message is succinct, clear, free from specialist in-house terms which lead to
    confusion and require a definition ( i have provided those where I felt it necessary)
    and of which the layman may have little knowledge of. Christ's own teaching is
    exemplified by a sublime simplicity.

    Gods original purpose has not changed, if so, can you demonstrate to me from the
    sacred text where it has, thank you in advance and you are quite wrong about the
    watchtower teaching concerning the paradise, but this of course is not a discussion
    about the watchtower publication, its about the Bible, why you seek to introduce it is
    known only to you.
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    19 Apr '13 10:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In the beginning God created a paradise that was to extend throughout the earth,
    man and women were to live indefinitely on that paradise. This was Gods original
    purpose. It remains unchanged.

    Humans sought independence from God aided by a satanic agency, established
    their own code of morality and questioned Gods universal sovereignty (ri ...[text shortened]... y knowledge is a fair and true representation of the Biblical message.

    *really teaches.
    God did all this, went through all that effort, suffering and travail and then said:

    "however what I'm gonna do is make it only accessible through one little temporal religious organisation and if a person is not a member of that temporal organisation then they are out of luck"
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    19 Apr '13 10:312 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    God did all this, went through all that effort, suffering and travail and then said:

    "however what I'm gonna do is make it only accessible through one little temporal religious organisation and if a person is not a member of that temporal organisation then they are out of luck"
    Can you demonstrate to me in the text where i mention any organisation other than
    Gods Kingdom, if not, why are you seeking to introduce elements that are not there?
    You do know how to assimilate material and respond to what is actually written or do
    you get someone else to fill in forms for you?
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    19 Apr '13 11:481 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Can you demonstrate to me in the text where i mention any organisation other than
    Gods Kingdom, if not, why are you seeking to introduce elements that are not there?
    You do know how to assimilate material and respond to what is actually written or do
    you get someone else to fill in forms for you?
    You spoke of an after this life paradise in your text, am I wrong in saying that is only accessible members of the Jehovah witness organisation ?
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    19 Apr '13 13:125 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You spoke of an after this life paradise in your text, am I wrong in saying that is only accessible members of the Jehovah witness organisation ?
    So you cannot demonstrate where the article mentions any other organisation other
    than Gods Kingdom, how telling. The article doesn't mention Jehovahs witnesses,
    does it. In fact, its entitled, 'what does the Bible really teach', isn't it.

    Please stop introducing irrelevant elements or take your tedious trolling somewhere
    else. If you are having difficulty either assimilating what is written, or have trouble
    filling in forms, I'd be more than happy to help you. I repeat there is no mention of
    after life anything, nor of Jehovahs witnesses, try to read and assimilate the text or
    ask someone else to help you. Lack of reading comprehension should not be a barrier
    to understanding, at least not in this day and age.
  8. SubscriberProper Knob
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    19 Apr '13 13:20
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    So you cannot demonstrate where the article mentions any other organisation other
    than Gods Kingdom, how telling. The article doesn't mention Jehovahs witnesses,
    does it. In fact, its entitled, 'what does the Bible really teach', isn't it.

    Please stop introducing irrelevant elements or take your tedious trolling somewhere
    else. If you ar ...[text shortened]... comprehension should not be a barrier
    to understanding, at least not in this day and age.
    Which humans will be 'gradually brought back to perfection' Rob?
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    19 Apr '13 13:21
    Originally posted by divegeester
    God did all this, went through all that effort, suffering and travail and then said:

    "however what I'm gonna do is make it only accessible through one little temporal religious organisation and if a person is not a member of that temporal organisation then they are out of luck"
    I never thought a Christian would finally realize how ridiculous it is.
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    19 Apr '13 13:302 edits
    On the contrary, I have a Biblical reference for every single assertion. I wont have the Biblical message sullied with any talk of mingling, esoteric mysticism or extra biblical neo platonic paganism.


    I know that you have supporting references. I did not say you had none.

    I said that the teaching is superficial. In other words is it on the surface and not too deep.


    The message is succinct, clear, free from specialist in-house terms which lead to
    confusion and require a definition ( i have provided those where I felt it necessary)


    It is succunct now. But wait until you jump through the hoops to talk about 144,000. Wait until you deny the incarnation of God in Jesus. Wait until you speak of many other things that have to come along with Watchtower teaching.

    Then the message is extremely "in-house."


    and of which the layman may have little knowledge of. Christ's own teaching is
    exemplified by a sublime simplicity.


    I do not believe the clergy / laity system is valid. So the term layman I do not use. I believe in the priesthood of every believer and no meditorial class of clergy or a laity of commoners in the church.

    Yes, simplicity is often the hallmark of Christ's words. I would not argue with that.

    However, to be totally fair, many of His utterances were not that simple. And we really should embrace both.

    For example the prayer of Jesus in John 17 is not that simple but is profound. And we should regard it certainly as crucial in that it reveals what is really on His heart.

    That includes profound words like this -

    "That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

    And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one,

    I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one ..." (John 17:21-23a)


    These are profound words Robbie. They are much more than just a request that man live on a happy Eden like earth. They are deeper than a petition to the Father that the earth be a Paradise garden where no one ever grows old and dies.

    That the believers in Christ may be one even as the Father and the Son are one. That is one is life, one in nature, one in expression, one in glory.

    Do not say this is all "in-house" or esoteric for the sake of being esoteric. This is the prayer request of the Son of God. The glory that the Father gives the Son the Son gives to His believers. Do you think this is a small matter?

    " ... that they also may be in Us ..."

    It is one matter to have a garden like planet where all are happy and live everlastingly. It is a much more profound matter that Christ would desire that man would be in the Divine "Us".

    So I don't say all that you wrote is wrong. Neither do I say you have no supporting passages from the Bible. I say let us look deeper into the purpose of God and not just superficially at what makes for a happy mankind.


    Gods original purpose has not changed,


    Notice Robbie. There is the kingdom prepared FROM the foundation of the world(Matt. 25:34). But there is something more. That is the purpose of God to have sons "BEFORE the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4,5)

    From the foundation of the world is wonderful.
    Before the foundation of the world is more wonderful.

    The nations walking in the light of the holy city New Jerusalem is wonderful.
    But the New Jerusalem itself is more wonderful.

    The kingdom on the Edenic earth is a plan from the foundation of the world.
    But the desire for Godmen as sons of God is the eternal purpose before the foundation of the world.

    "Even as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world to be holy and without vlemish before Him in love,

    predestinating us to SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4-5)


    The nations being healed by the leaves of the tree of life are not the sons of God. But they are everlastingly blessed as you desire. And they enjoy a new heaven and a new earth.

    But the holy city New Jerusalem is the tabernacle of God, the dwelling place of God in spirit, the house of God where God lives in man and man lives in God.

    This is the pleasure of His heart from BEFORE the foundation of the world.
    Did they ever tell you that down at the kingdom hall?

    The "city" is the mingling of God and man as the Bride and Wife of the incarnated, crucified, resurrected and glorified Godman Christ.


    if so, can you demonstrate to me from the sacred text where it has, thank you in advance and you are quite wrong about the watchtower teaching concerning the paradise, but this of course is not a discussion about the watchtower publication, its about the Bible, why you seek to introduce it is
    known only to you.


    It is not known only to me by any means.

    www.godseconomy.org

    www.localchurches.org

    However, you are quite right that the Bible should be our guide.

    Now I want to ask you a question. Tell me what you think.

    Do you think that Adam ever ate of the tree of life ?
    We know he ate of the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    Do you think that Adam ever partook of fruit of "the tree of life".

    If so how do you go about to prove that for me?
    If not, then don't you think as happy as adam and eve were before the fall, there was something missing in their fulfillment of the purpose of God ?

    Your replies to these specific questions please.
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    19 Apr '13 13:51
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    Which humans will be 'gradually brought back to perfection' Rob?
    all humans who survive Armageddon and those who are subsequently resurrected
    afterwards and who learn about the Christ, in other words, all those who are prepared
    to submit to Gods sovereignty.
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    19 Apr '13 14:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    all humans who survive Armageddon and those who are subsequently resurrected
    afterwards and who learn about the Christ, in other words, all those who are prepared
    to submit to Gods sovereignty.
    Who do you believe will survive Armageddon?
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    19 Apr '13 14:073 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    all humans who survive Armageddon and those who are subsequently resurrected
    afterwards and who learn about the Christ, in other words, all those who are prepared
    to submit to Gods sovereignty.
    all humans who survive Armageddon and those who are subsequently resurrected afterwards and who learn about the Christ, in other words, all those who are prepared to submit to Gods sovereignty.


    The judgment set up by Christ in Matthew 25 is AFTER the battle of Armegeddon. For is at the commencement of the millennial kingdom.

    "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (v.34)

    These "sheep" from "all the nations ... gathered before Him" are on His right hand. They are transfered into the millennial kingdom and they did survive the time of the battle of Armegeddon.

    However, from "all the nations ... father before Him [Christ] are also the "goats" set on Christ's left hand. They survived the time of the battle of Armegeddon but were on the wrong side of matters.

    These goats from the nations go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    "Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ..." (v.41)

    So Robbie, of the nations which survive the battle of Armegeddon there are two groups plus another group mentioned in the passages.

    "And these [goats ] shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life." (v.46)

    The separation of these two groups and the subsequent judgment of them by Christ is not based upon the Gospel preached in the church age.

    It is based upon their treatment of these, the least of My brothers.

    In other words - people sympathetic to Jews and Christians under the persecution of Antichrist and people unsympathetic to Jews and Christians under the persecution of Antichrist.
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    19 Apr '13 14:12
    Originally posted by sonship
    On the contrary, I have a Biblical reference for every single assertion. I wont have the Biblical message sullied with any talk of mingling, esoteric mysticism or extra biblical neo platonic paganism.


    I know that you have supporting references. I did not say you had none.

    I said that the teaching is superficial. In other words is i ...[text shortened]... the purpose of God ?

    Your replies to these specific questions please.
    What you stated was that these ideas were, 'man centred', whereas in fact, they can
    be established Biblically. Simply because they have a rational basis does not make
    them any less valid than some more fanciful interpretations of the Biblical message.

    The term laymen applies to persons who are non experts and has nothing to do with
    a clergy laity distinction although etymologically, I suspect that it probably did but
    cannot be sure as i have not researched the term. Suffice to say its used with
    reference to a non expert.

    These other doctrinal matters do not belong in a succinct portrayal of the Biblical
    message. My goal was simply to highlight the most important issues, those being,
    universal sovereignty, the sanctification of Gods name, the propitiatory sacrifice of
    the Christ and what it accomplished and his role in Gods Kingdom as well as Gods
    purpose. I feel I did so well enough that almost anyone could grasp the Bibles
    message without having to do extensive research into terms which may simply lend
    themselves to confusion.

    Its not so easy to sum up the Biblical message in its entirety in such way, if you
    think you can do better then you should try it. In fact i would like to encourage you
    to do so.

    As for your questions, I try not to engage in speculation. The Bible states nothing,
    according to my knowledge about whether Adam ate of the tree of life and I prefer
    'not to go beyond what is written'. Again whether there was something missing, I
    cannot say, sorry.
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    19 Apr '13 14:131 edit
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    Who do you believe will survive Armageddon?
    Those who submit to Gods authority. Those calling upon Gods name. Those who are
    evangelising. Shall I demonstrate with Biblical reference?
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