What was so special about Jesus?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I'd love to discuss it. However, I'd prefer to see some sound reasoning, rather than just somebody asserting that Jesus is special, or a count of how many Christians there are in the world, or a "who's who" list of people who give props to Jesus, or shaky apologetics.

Ok, then lets discuss Jesus. What impresses me with Jesus is that he violates the tendencies of human nature. Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself. At the same time, however, he makes bold statements such as man only being able to come to the Father through him and him personally being the truth, the way, and the life. For example, Christ:
1. Invaded the politics and power of men only in the context of confronting the religious leaders of his time. However, he neither sought to replace them nor overthrow them in any way. This confrontation was the apparent concern that they should be ambassoders for God by reaching out to the lost and needy instead of holding such positions for the mere perks which included wealth and stature within the community.
2. Took the side of the poor and needy yet without any apparent self interest involved. He did it soley for the righteousness of doing so.
3. Taught that we should love our enemies as well as those who love us. This was revolutionary for its day as well as for our time and, I am sure, for future generations to come.
4. Made it clear that this world was not his kingdom thus divorcing himself entirely from the notion of living life for material gain and power in this present world even the presence of a brutal occupying foreign power of Rome. In fact, many were disappointed in him for this position and it is speculated that this was one of the reasons for the betrayal of his disciple Judus.
5. Clearly, from the way scripture records what Jesus said and did he was not mad. Clearly, it was the other way around. Jesus was the one confronted by a world that had gone mad.
6. Continually quoted the Torah as well as interpreting teachings from the Torah and pointed to prophesies about himself in the Torah.
7. Made it clear that he was to leave them and die even though at the time these teachings were little if at all understood by his disciples.
8. Came into this world with next to nothing, lived his life with next to nothing and left this world with next to nothing and was for the most part a "nobody". He was merely a carpenters son, yet, why all the fuss? In fact, he did'nt even write about himself.
9. Made it clear that the answers to our ills are found in the concept of love and not politics, not science, not x, y, or z. Love for our fellow man and our God is all that matters and without it our lives mean nothing. All the laws of God are a simple reflection of such love. For me, this is the greatest truth of all.

Who is like him?

Originally posted by whodey
Ok, then lets discuss Jesus. What impresses me with Jesus is that he violates the tendencies of human nature. Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself. At the same time, however, he makes bold statements such as man only being able to come to the Father through him and him personally being the truth, the way, and the life. For example, Christ: ...[text shortened]... mple reflection of such love. For me, this is the greatest truth of all.

Who is like him?

Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself.

Speaking in front of large crowds can give glory and power. Just ask any popular talk show host, televangelist, or motivational speaker.

At the same time, however, he makes bold statements such as man only being able to come to the Father through him and him personally being the truth, the way, and the life.

The key to the door of eternal salvation? If that's not seeking power, I don't know what is.

1. Invaded the politics and power of men only in the context of confronting the religious leaders of his time. However, he neither sought to replace them nor overthrow them in any way. This confrontation was the apparent concern that they should be ambassoders for God by reaching out to the lost and needy instead of holding such positions for the mere perks which included wealth and stature within the community.

Well, this I can agree on. Some churches horde their wealth. If their mission is helping the poor, they should not waste money on elaborate buildings and other luxuries.

3. Taught that we should love our enemies as well as those who love us.

This one is so revolutionary that there are few capable of doing it. It's an unnatural demand.

5. Clearly, from the way scripture records what Jesus said and did he was not mad. Clearly, it was the other way around. Jesus was the one confronted by a world that had gone mad.

Clear as mud. This is another Bonaparte-style assertion without backing.

6. Continually quoted the Torah as well as interpreting teachings from the Torah and pointed to prophesies about himself in the Torah.

Any chucklehead can fulfill a prophesy. Just do what the prophets said would happen.

7. Made it clear that he was to leave them and die even though at the time these teachings were little if at all understood by his disciples.

Is it really so hard to predict your own demise when you've gone out of your way to make powerful political enemies?

Will respond to the rest later. Gotta go eat turkey now...

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself.

Speaking in front of large crowds can give glory and power. Just ask any popular talk show host, televangelist, or motivational speaker.

At the same time, however, he makes bold statements such as man only being able to come to the Father through him and him personally being the truth, ...[text shortened]... ke powerful political enemies?

Will respond to the rest later. Gotta go eat turkey now...

Swissgambit, I think all the claims he made about Jesus can also be made about Tupac Shakur!!

Originally posted by castlerook
When I read Mere Christianity as a young adolescent, I thought this passage was profound and was quite affected by it. Today, though, I find the argument deeply flawed. My problem with it is that it rests on an unspoken, and in my opinion unwarranted, assumption: that the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus are one and the same.

Lest I be grossly ...[text shortened]... nature. Incidentally, from this perspective the question of this thread is rather meaningless.

I find the argument deeply flawed. My problem with it is that it rests on an unspoken, and in my opinion unwarranted, assumption: that the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus are one and the same.
---castle rook-----

---------KM ---

The historical Jesus was crucified for blasphemy was he not. Is it not a warranted assumption that he claimed to be God and that that was his "crime"?

Originally posted by castlerook
First of all, C. S. Lewis himself stated that the Christ story was a myth. He also believed that it was factual. Note that this is not at all a contradiction, as "myth" in this context means not something false, but "a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natura ...[text shortened]... s far less important than the power that the "Jesus myth" has had and continues to have.

For me the question of whether the biblical account of Jesus is factual is far less important than the power that the "Jesus myth" has had and continues to have.
---------------castlerook------

Hmm....yes .........this "power" that the Jesus myth has...could it be the Holy Spirit "myth"? Or is it real?

Originally posted by The Dude 84
Swissgambit, I think all the claims he made about Jesus can also be made about Tupac Shakur!!

The Torah prophesied the coming of Tupac? Damn, I gotta read that part again! 😵

Originally posted by whodey
Ok, then lets discuss Jesus. What impresses me with Jesus is that he violates the tendencies of human nature. Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself. At the same time, however, he makes bold statements such as man only being able to come to the Father through him and him personally being the truth, the way, and the life. For example, Christ: mple reflection of such love. For me, this is the greatest truth of all.

Who is like him?

[continued response]

8. Came into this world with next to nothing, lived his life with next to nothing and left this world with next to nothing and was for the most part a "nobody". He was merely a carpenters son, yet, why all the fuss? In fact, he did'nt even write about himself.

There's several historically famous people who came from very poor families. I'm not sure why you call him a 'nobody'; if the biblical accounts are true, some of his miracles and speeches drew crowds. If he really did what was claimed, he would have certainly acquired notoriety.

9. Made it clear that the answers to our ills are found in the concept of love and not politics, not science, not x, y, or z. Love for our fellow man and our God is all that matters and without it our lives mean nothing. All the laws of God are a simple reflection of such love. For me, this is the greatest truth of all.

I want to see some support for this one. Where does Jesus reject science? Or are you claiming an implicit rejection of it because he didn't speak of it much?

Originally posted by knightmeister
The historical Jesus was crucified for blasphemy was he not. Is it not a warranted assumption that he claimed to be God and that that was his "crime"?

How do you know anything about the historical Jesus? I thought the whole point of the post you were responding to was that the Biblical Jesus is not necessarily historical. Do you have any other source of information on Jesus that is not Biblical?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I want to see some support for this one. Where does Jesus reject science? Or are you claiming an implicit rejection of it because he didn't speak of it much?[/b]

I am not saying that he rejected science, rather, I am saying that he indicated that the lack/absence of love was at the core of all our ills. Science can be beneficial, but should not be the focus for curing our ills. Likewise, political intervention can help us, however, it should not be considered the cure for all our ills etc. I would compare it to trying to cure someone dying of a chronic incurable disease. We can treat their symptoms but what we need is healing regarding the core problem.

Having said that, I will ask again, who is like him?

Edit: Please don't say Tupoc. I would like a serious response. 😉

Originally posted by SwissGambit

Any chucklehead can fulfill a prophesy. Just do what the prophets said would happen.

How many do you think you can fulfill? How about where you were born for starters that was fortold? How about when you were born that was predicted in Daniel? How about how you would meet your end that was fortold in graphic detail that was mentioned in Isaiah? How about being from the right kind of lineage that was fortold etc.? I think you have glibly brushed aside this dillemma as most nonbelievers do. Either it is a lack knowledge regarding the myriad fulfilled prophesies about the Messiah or an unwillingness to acknowledge them or perhaps a combination thereof. Then again, perhaps what we want to believe will prevail no matter the facts involved. For example, a young earth creationist will repeatidly dodge questions about the age of the earth and an evidences for evolutionary deveolpment etc. No matter the facts presented, there are ALWAYS counter arguments, no matter how frail, to deflect such asseritons. I know, I used to be one until I decided to humble myself and study the matter in greater detail to know the truth of the matter instead of protecting what I wanted to believe by deflecting the facts. That is why belief is such a powerful phenomenon. The data you gather will be molded according to your beliefs no matter what they may be until such a belief is confronted and changed for whatever reason.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]Namely, he does not seek glory and power for himself.

Speaking in front of large crowds can give glory and power. Just ask any popular talk show host, televangelist, or motivational speaker.

So if one speaks in front of a large audiance they are attempting to gain glory and power for themself? That is quiet a judgement. For exmaple, if a building was on fire and no one knew it but yourself and you screamed to everyone to evacuate you would be doing so to seek glory for yourself?

Back up your assertion by identifying how this power and glory was manifested while he walked the earth.

Originally posted by whodey
How many do you think you can fulfill? How about where you were born for starters that was fortold? How about when you were born that was predicted in Daniel? How about being from the right kind of lineage that was fortold etc.?

Oh come on. Everybody knows that those were all made up to fit the prophesy. And by the way, which lineage are you talking about? The Bible mentions two different lineages and both are for his step father!

I know, I used to be one until I decided to humble myself and study the matter in greater detail to know the truth of the matter instead of protecting what I wanted to believe by deflecting the facts.
I hope you have the good sense to do the same with the above 'prophesies'.

Originally posted by whodey
I am not saying that he rejected science, rather, I am saying that he indicated that the lack/absence of love was at the core of all our ills. Science can be beneficial, but should not be the focus for curing our ills. Likewise, political intervention can help us, however, it should not be considered the cure for all our ills etc. I would compare it to try ...[text shortened]... again, who is like him?

Edit: Please don't say Tupoc. I would like a serious response. 😉

I am not saying that he rejected science, rather, I am saying that he indicated that the lack/absence of love was at the core of all our ills.

Again, I prefer to see support for this. Where did Jesus ever say that love cures all ills?

Science can be beneficial, but should not be the focus for curing our ills.

Even if our ills happen to be of the physical variety?

Likewise, political intervention can help us, however, it should not be considered the cure for all our ills etc.

Tell that to the civil rights activists, slavery abolitionists, etc. of history.

Having said that, I will ask again, who is like him?

Socrates. He championed virtue over acquisition of wealth. He was sentenced to death for his beliefs and refused to try to escape, as his followers urged.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]I am not saying that he rejected science, rather, I am saying that he indicated that the lack/absence of love was at the core of all our ills.

Again, I prefer to see support for this. Where did Jesus ever say that love cures all ills?

Christ did not use those exact words, however, he did say that one need only to love God and his fellow man and he will obey all of the laws of the prophets without even trying. Love is not only the completion of the law of God it is the source of such laws. It should be our focus and all will be well with us if we do.

Originally posted by whodey
How many do you think you can fulfill? How about where you were born for starters that was fortold? How about when you were born that was predicted in Daniel? How about how you would meet your end that was fortold in graphic detail that was mentioned in Isaiah? How about being from the right kind of lineage that was fortold etc.? I think you have glibly ...[text shortened]... fs no matter what they may be until such a belief is confronted and changed for whatever reason.

I need to be more clear. It's not that said chucklehead goes out and says, "Gee, I feel like fulfilling a prophesy today!" It's that there are thousands of people studying prophesies and expecting them to happen. This means they go look at the birth city. They interpret things like "70 weeks" to mean "70 weeks of years" so that the timing will be right. In other words, when the time comes, they pick some notable person from the city and claim he has fulfilled the prophecy.

The Christian interpretation of Daniel 9 is by no means consensus. The Jews [religion] do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. There are other theories like

http://www.bibleinsight.com/daniel9.html

that need to be addressed. There is also the theory that the book of Daniel was actually written near 170 BC instead of the earlier date needed to support the Christian interpretation.

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/daniel.html

Then again, perhaps what we want to believe will prevail no matter the facts involved.

Could it be that Christians are the ones guilty of twisting the facts to suit their desired belief?