1. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 11:12
    I mean we've got service men laying down their lives
    every day. If each of them were treated proportionally
    to Christ, we'd be up to our necks in hymns and mantras.
  2. Cape Town
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    19 Nov '07 11:23
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I mean we've got service men laying down their lives
    every day. If each of them were treated proportionally
    to Christ, we'd be up to our necks in hymns and mantras.
    Well supposedly Christ was offering everybody a place in heaven. The service men you speak of have no such offers on the table.
    Also, he was apparently God. I doubt the servicemen can make that claim either.
    But you probably know all that, so why are you really asking the question? What is the real point you would like to make?
  3. England
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    19 Nov '07 11:28
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I mean we've got service men laying down their lives
    every day. If each of them were treated proportionally
    to Christ, we'd be up to our necks in hymns and mantras.
    service of man they lay there lives. payed for by man ordered to do by man, killing and taking what is not thiers to take for man. Serving god takes more giving what is yours, praying for all and building a world without sin.
  4. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 12:32
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Well supposedly Christ was offering everybody a place in heaven. The service men you speak of have no such offers on the table.
    Also, he was apparently God. I doubt the servicemen can make that claim either.
    But you probably know all that, so why are you really asking the question? What is the real point you would like to make?
    There's no hidden agenda here. I truly believe it more noble to
    die for the love of fellow man without reward than it is to die for
    a place in heaven. My point is that religion is severly disproportionate.
  5. Cape Town
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    19 Nov '07 12:54
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    There's no hidden agenda here. I truly believe it more noble to
    die for the love of fellow man without reward than it is to die for
    a place in heaven. My point is that religion is severly disproportionate.
    But Christ supposedly did not die for a place in heaven for himself but for the love of the fellow man. (if 'fellow man' makes any sense when Jesus was also supposedly God).
    I suspect that many soldiers:
    1. Do expect a reward.
    2. Do not plan to die.
    Besides, I don't know of any people going around claiming that Jesus' actions were the most noble, so where is your argument?
    You might as well say:
    "Some of the service men were taller than Jesus therefore religion is severely disproportionate."
    You are making a claim based on a comparison that is irrelevant.
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    19 Nov '07 12:581 edit
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    There's no hidden agenda here. I truly believe it more noble to
    die for the love of fellow man without reward than it is to die for
    a place in heaven. My point is that religion is severly disproportionate.
    Christ said that no man has greater love for his friends than to lay down his life for them. I don't think he was excluding those that also lay down their lives for those they love when he said it, rather, he was merely pointing out a fact. Having said that, it then appears that no man has greater love for the human race because Christ assumingly laid down his life for all of us which includes both friend and foe. Therefore, you could say that those you lay down your life for no man has greater love for whoever that may be. I don't really view it as a peeing contest, however, as to who loves who the most more. I am just glad God loves us all just as we are thankful for those who are willing to lay down their lives in order to help protect our own respective countries.
  7. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 13:461 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But Christ supposedly did not die for a place in heaven for himself but for the love of the fellow man. (if 'fellow man' makes any sense when Jesus was also supposedly God).
    I suspect that many soldiers:
    1. Do expect a reward.
    2. Do not plan to die.
    Besides, I don't know of any people going around claiming that Jesus' actions were the most noble, so w erely disproportionate."
    You are making a claim based on a comparison that is irrelevant.
    There have been many many thousands of men throughout history
    that have gone into battle, knowing they were going to die for their
    country.

    If Jesus didn't expect to go to heaven, where did he expect to go?

    'I don't know of any people going around claiming that Jesus' actions were the most noble'
    -- Isn't that precisely what religion is based on? Jesus's act of absolute
    self-sacrifice?

    Noble - Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor.

    Are you saying that there have been other men, more moral, courageous or generous since?
    If so, why do we worship Jesus?
  8. Cape Town
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    19 Nov '07 13:51
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    -- Isn't that precisely what religion is based on? Jesus's act of absolute self-sacrifice?
    No, not in the way you are using it anyway and certainly not based on the belief that his sacrifice was necessarily the most noble. I believe his sacrifice is usually given greater value based on the belief that he was without sin or God or some such property which makes it impossible for any other human being to compete.

    If so, why do we worship Jesus?
    I don't. Do you?
  9. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 14:121 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, not in the way you are using it anyway and certainly not based on the belief that his sacrifice was necessarily the most noble. I believe his sacrifice is usually given greater value based on the belief that he was without sin or God or some such property which makes it impossible for any other human being to compete.

    [b]If so, why do we worship Jesus?

    I don't. Do you?[/b]
    But wasn't the belief that he was God based on his acts of compassion
    and self-sacrifice?
    Or was it just his miracles? We've got a fair few of them scattered
    throughout history too, magicians and fraudsters alike.

    And no, you've probably guessed, I don't worship Jesus.
  10. Standard membergenius
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    19 Nov '07 14:213 edits
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    There's no hidden agenda here. I truly believe it more noble to
    die for the love of fellow man without reward than it is to die for
    a place in heaven. My point is that religion is severly disproportionate.
    Dulce Et Decorum Est

    Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
    Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
    Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
    And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
    Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
    But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
    Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
    Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

    Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
    Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
    But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
    And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
    Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
    As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

    In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
    He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

    If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
    Pro patria mori.

    -Wilfred Owen

    You are, however, quite right. Many people do die to save us, and we do not give them the honour that they deserve. However, it (dying for us) is not the only reason that we worship Jesus. Yes he saved us - but he saved us eternally. The stakes were so much higher. He also created us, he cares for us, and so on. There is no "one thing" that he did that makes us praise him. He did not die for the rock, and yet if we did not worship him, the rock would cry out in praise! His very being demands our worship!

    He is God, the father of the universe. He is your father. You do not love those soldiers who dies for you more love than your earthly father, do you? It is similar with Jesus, God, your heavenly father. 🙂
  11. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 15:57
    Atheists in foxholes
    "Atheists in foxholes, some say they are myths,
    Creations of the mind who just don't exist.
    Yet, they answered the call to defend, with great pride.
    With reason their watchword, they bled and they died."
    by Alice Shiver (web)
  12. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 15:58
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
    -- Stephen Roberts
  13. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    19 Nov '07 17:10
    Originally posted by genius
    Dulce Et Decorum Est

    Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
    Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
    Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
    And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
    Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
    But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
    Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the ...[text shortened]... ve than your earthly father, do you? It is similar with Jesus, God, your heavenly father. 🙂
    I like what you wrote and if Jesus was the son of God, I'd agree
    wholeheartedly. I just don't understand what convinced you of this??
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    20 Nov '07 05:49
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I like what you wrote and if Jesus was the son of God, I'd agree
    wholeheartedly. I just don't understand what convinced you of this??
    "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the divil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonesense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

    -C.S Lewis.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    20 Nov '07 06:461 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the divil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a f ...[text shortened]... great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

    -C.S Lewis.
    False Dilemma fallacy.

    It's just like Josh McDowell's, "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?".
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