Originally posted by scottishinnzNo one selects the grains of sand, unless you count God I believe
so who selects the grains of sand on a beach then? You've never answered that. Perhaps Freaky could illuminate us to which force causes those sand grains to be so well sorted, and how it knows to do it.
Both you, Kelly, and Freaky, could well do to go and read a textbook on probability, and then perhaps a book or two on evolutionary biology.
I gave you that answer before.
As far as processes are concern that is the question that has been
asked, does the evolutionary process do what the true believers in it
claim? I say it is faith on the true believers of evolution part, the
process is either so slow or so fast it cannot be seen only imagined.
The strongest evidence for evolution is between the ears of those that
believe in it, the connecting the dots.
Kelly
Originally posted by telerionYeah, ya got me there: I know so little about economics, despite being an executive of a Fortune 500 company (currently in the top 50, according to the latest edition). You're a teacher and that trumps the guy in the field, right? What's that old saying: 'those who can't, teach?'
It doesn't matter how the goods get to the market anymore than it matters why a single panda bear eats on one bamboo stalk rather than on an identical bamboo stalk next to it. The kinds of "selection" that scott and I describe arise from pressures and incentives that shape aggregate behavior in a general equilibrium.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I thi ...[text shortened]... everything. All you can do is make an attempt to be informed before you open your mouth.
Another poor analogy with an equally ineffective value assessment. How things get to the market is relevant to the whole formula, whereas the happenstance of one stalk over against another is, well, happenstance that carries little impact.
The effects that you are describing are not the causes of the effects that you are describing. Not that I'm an expert, of course: this is just common sense.
Originally posted by amannionExactly the point. The sooner you can get your mind around that fact, the sooner you will be going the right direction.
Freaky, what is it with you and this 'natural selection is a force' thing?
Just get over it man.
Natural selection is not, never has been, and never will be a force.
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo NS is now a reaction/process/agent. Cool. When (if) I grow up, I wanna be a shape-shifter like NS.
Natural selection is a reaction to a pressure - it's not a force. It is dependant upon how good the attributes of an organism are in comparison to all the other organisms it competes with. No person or force selects one organism over another, competition for limited resources is ultimately the selector and the least good don't survive.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHEconomics is not business. A business person is not working "in the field." That's like calling a drugstore manager a physician.
Yeah, ya got me there: I know so little about economics, despite being an executive of a Fortune 500 company (currently in the top 50, according to the latest edition). You're a teacher and that trumps the guy in the field, right? What's that old saying: 'those who can't, teach?'
Another poor analogy with an equally ineffective value assessment. How ...[text shortened]... ts that you are describing. Not that I'm an expert, of course: this is just common sense.
By the way, teaching is just a requirement of the job. I'm actually a researcher first. So, to recap, no, you don't do anything in the field. Yes, I can, and I do.
You have really gone downhill around here.
Originally posted by KellyJayWRONG!!! And again you demonstrate your ignorance on this subject.
It doesn't even make sense to say 'survival of the fittest' if one
buys into evolution, because it isn't always the strong, the fast,
the healthy that survive in it; it is more survival of the lucky.
Survival of the fittest is more of a physiological line of thought
than anything else, a kin to might makes right.
Kelly
If you'd actually read any evolution literature (rather than the garbage that the church spews out) you'd know that "fittest" means "best adapted to the environment", which often has little to do with being fast or strong or whatever. If it was only about being strong or fast evolutionary biologists would have real trouble explaining snails.
Also, whilst you do have a point about there being a fair degree of luck involved, the important thing isn't the individual organisms but the relative frequencies of genes within the population. Read a good book on evolution and probability and you'll quickly come to realise that since there are many copies of the same gene within a population that probability, based on any survival advantages or disadvantages brought about by having or not having that particular gene, plays a far larger role than environmental stochasticity. For example, flip a coin and the odds are 50:50 if it'll come up heads or tails. This does not allow you to predict what will come up on any given throw, but you can say that the long term average will tend towards 50% heads and 50% tails. Likewise, over time a "good" gene with multiple copies in multiple organisms will come to prevail over "bad" genes. Simple probability, go read a book on it. And no, the bible doesn't count as a stats textbook.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI believe the saying you're looking for is this;
Yeah, ya got me there: I know so little about economics, despite being an executive of a Fortune 500 company (currently in the top 50, according to the latest edition). You're a teacher and that trumps the guy in the field, right? What's that old saying: 'those who can't, teach?'
Another poor analogy with an equally ineffective value assessment. How ...[text shortened]... ts that you are describing. Not that I'm an expert, of course: this is just common sense.
"those who can't think - bible!"
Originally posted by KellyJayNo, the strongest evidence of evolutionary biology is Staphylococcus aereus in our hospitals, mutating and evolving in reaction to a pressure, becoming resistant to antibiotics.
No one selects the grains of sand, unless you count God I believe
I gave you that answer before.
As far as processes are concern that is the question that has been
asked, does the evolutionary process do what the true believers in it
claim? I say it is faith on the true believers of evolution part, the
process is either so slow or so fast it cannot b ...[text shortened]... for evolution is between the ears of those that
believe in it, the connecting the dots.
Kelly
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOh, so the fact that you are unable to comprehend that natural selection is a process (not a force or an agent as you have been wrongly trying to clasify it as) means that it now becomes a shape-shifter? The only thing shifting around here Freaky is the goal posts that you creationists seem to see fit to construct.
So NS is now a reaction/process/agent. Cool. When (if) I grow up, I wanna be a shape-shifter like NS.
Originally posted by telerionI was actually tempted to edit the post to which you are responding, thinking I should be pre-emptive sarcastic and say something along the lines of 'you'll probably say economics have nothing to do with business.' But my response to that thought was, "Nah. Even he's not dumb enough to go that far." Looks like I was wrong.
Economics is not business. A business person is not working "in the field." That's like calling a drugstore manager a physician.
By the way, teaching is just a requirement of the job. I'm actually a researcher first. So, to recap, no, you don't do anything in the field. Yes, I can, and I do.
You have really gone downhill around here.
"Economics is not business." While you could try to spin that a couple ways to make it fit, we both know what you are attempting to say. News flash for you: while you were busy researching things, it was determined that without business, there are no economics.
Do you really think it's possible to run a successful company (by the currently-accepted standards) and not know something of economics? Or am I just one inexplicably lucky SOB?
Yes, I can, and I do.
And I'll bet the work you do is for a Fortune 500 company, too.
Originally posted by scottishinnzI know you think you are saying something true, but in reality, you are not considering the ramifications of what you are saying.
Oh, so the fact that you are unable to comprehend that natural selection is a process (not a force or an agent as you have been wrongly trying to clasify it as) means that it now becomes a shape-shifter? The only thing shifting around here Freaky is the goal posts that you creationists seem to see fit to construct.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHPlease, illustrate for us then exactly what did happen, why things are the way that they are, why the world appears to be 4.5 byo, why there is a fossil record. The whole shi-bang please, we want to know exactly what happened why, and how.
I know you think you are saying something true, but in reality, you are not considering the ramifications of what you are saying.