When Jesus Became Son of God

Checkbaiter, I am encouraged that you did say you believe that Jesus is God mingled with man. I think we are on the same plane right there.

The problem is with OUR being mingled with God as well. Does that make us God?

Maybe we should not dumb down the gospel because we stagger at the thought that we TOO are men mingled with God.

We are men mingled with God not as the Head of the entity from eternity. But we are men mingled with God via salvation - not as the Source and Head, but as the redeemed and saved and the Body of Christ.

Did you read that we believers in Christ are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) ?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] They are mingled. Just as you and I are mingled with God, but it makes neither of us God.
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If we are mingled with God, then in some sense we have to say that we are God.

Can we be Christ's Body without being Christ ?

We can be God via His dis ...[text shortened]... you are God, so far in your human spirit which is "joined to the Lord".

Am I right ?[/b]

I'm not sure I understand where you are going. I don't consider myself to be God in any sense. I consider Him to be my Father and Jesus my Lord, because God highly exalted him to that position.
I study and learn so that I can grow and be like Christ, my big brother, but he is still the head which I will never be.
If anyone thinks he is "God", I would like to see them create a frog.

Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter, I am encouraged that you did say you believe that Jesus is God mingled with man. I think we are on the same plane right there.

The problem is with OUR being mingled with God as well. Does that make us God?

Maybe we should not dumb down the gospel because we stagger at the thought that we TOO are men mingled with God.

We are men ...[text shortened]... ou read that we believers in Christ are [b]"partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) ?[/b]

Yes, I am familiar with the verse, and I agree that we are mingled with God and am relieved that you still separate the two.
But when you say Jesus is mingled with God, I draw the same conclusion. Jesus is LIKE his Father, just as we strive to be, but it makes neither of us God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are too nice. I have noticed that both you and I have similar views on the nature of Jesus Christ. You have already told sonship that you would not change your view in this regard .. several times if I remember correctly. Why does he continue to insist that he can brainwash you into believing like him I cannot understand.

I try to be polite and humble. I never take the position that I know it all. But I will not compromise on what I see in God's word.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I'm not sure I understand where you are going. I don't consider myself to be God in any sense.
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Do you consider that God is you in any sense?
Seriously, the Holy Spirit is God and has become one spirit with your human spirit.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

When your spirit comes out to touch people, with your spirit comes the Holy Spirit which is God Himself. Can't you then say in a very real sense God has become you, and in some sense you have become God ?

When your spirit, mingled with God, joined to the Lord, flows out from you, does not God also flow out from you? If so then in some sense are you not God? And is not God in some sense YOU ?

Please, just this much before I go on with the rest of your post.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I try to be polite and humble. I never take the position that I know it all. But I will not compromise on what I see in God's word.

Correct .. nothing can supersede the teachings of Christ in the Bible. You will notice that in this Triune God teachings there is considerable adding and embellishing that is done to what Christ said to formulate a whole new doctrine not taught in the Bible.

Polite and humble are good qualities but not when the doctrine of which you are certain is being threatened. Christ and the Apostles certainly did not show politeness when they were similarly confronted.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I'm not sure I understand where you are going. I don't consider myself to be God in any sense.
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Do you consider that God is you in any sense?
Seriously, the Holy Spirit is God and has become one spirit with your human spirit.

"He who is join ...[text shortened]... ot God in some sense YOU ?

Please, just this much before I go on with the rest of your post.

I suppose it is your way of describing it. I see it as sort of an extension, yes. It is the love of God working in me and all Christians.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, I am familiar with the verse, and I agree that we are mingled with God and am relieved that you still separate the two.
But when you say Jesus is mingled with God, I draw the same conclusion. Jesus is LIKE his Father, just as we strive to be, but it makes neither of us God.

Like His Father, on the same mission like His Father, one with the Father .. Yes.
Not the same as, not equal to. Separate and distinct from his Father with distinct duties and responsibilities.

The head of Christ is God.
There are many things known to God but not to Christ.
Christ will rule in the millennial Kingdom on earth.
God will rule thereafter.

The list of statements in the Bible that you need to twist is humongous.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Like His Father, on the same mission like His Father, one with the Father .. Yes.
Not the same as, not equal to. Separate and distinct from his Father with distinct duties and responsibilities.

The head of Christ is God.
There are many things known to God but not to Christ.
Christ will rule in the millennial Kingdom on earth.
God will rule thereafter.

The list of statements in the Bible that you need to twist is humongous.

I agree...

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I consider Him to be my Father and Jesus my Lord, because God highly exalted him to that position.
I study and learn so that I can grow and be like Christ, my big brother, but he is still the head which I will never be.
If anyone thinks he is "God", I would like to see them create a frog.
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We will never be objects of worship.
We will never be creators of universes.
We will never be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent.
We will never be qualified to accomplish eternal redemption.

These are not communicable attributes of God.

But the Bible concludes with a collective entity which matches Christ to the point that she is the Bride and Wife of Christ.

She also is the temple and tabernacle of God as His dwelling place. So we are in the process of being perfected into one as the Father and the Son are one.

This is the petition of Christ the Elder Brother in John 17.

"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one.

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (See John 17:21-23)

So we Christians are in the PROCESS of manifesting the glory that was Christ and has been dispensed into us. That is the process in which we become one with one another and with God as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

Do you realize the complete fulfillment of that petition of Christ is New Jerusalem which matches Christ to the uttermost and is the corporate dwelling place of God?

We should not dumb down the New Testament then. We should get the vision in the normal church life, live in the vision, and not stagger at the hope.

We are becoming God in life and nature yet not in His Godhead.

Can we become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) and not in some real sense be God and He become us ?

We were born by Him.
We are buried with Him.
We were raised with Him.
We are seated with Him.

And He prays that we would share with Him His blessed place in the expression of the Father.

"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they aso may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

Our destiny is to be "with [Him]" in the eternal expression of the Divine Being. That is the glory that the Father has given to the Son in His being God mingled with man.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Christ will rule in the millennial Kingdom on earth.
God will rule thereafter.
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You should not think that Christ is no longer ruling after the millennial time. His throne as the Son is not temporary but forever.

" But of the Son, 'Your throne, O God, IS FOREVER AND EVER, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)

The Son's throne is therefore not only for 1,000 years but forever and ever.

The sons of God reign with Him forever and ever.

" ... for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 22:5b)

It is not possible that the many sons of God (Rev. 21:7) reign for eternity yet the Son of God as the Elder Brother not reign for eternity. So the "THEY" who reign forever has to be in conjunction with the Son whose throne is forever and ever - reigning for eternity.

Nothing in First Corinthians 15 means that after the millennial time Christ no longer is reigning on the throne over the earth.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I consider Him to be my Father and Jesus my Lord, because God highly exalted him to that position.
I study and learn so that I can grow and be like Christ, my big brother, but he is still the head which I will never be.
If anyone thinks he is "God", I would like to see them create a frog.
---------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... Being. That is the glory that the Father has given to the Son in His being God mingled with man.[/b]

I have no problem with any of this. I agree we will be like Christ and God, especially at His return for the church.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Christ will rule in the millennial Kingdom on earth.
God will rule thereafter.
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You should not think that Christ is no longer ruling after the millennial time. His throne as the Son is not temporary but forever.

[quote] " But of the Son, 'Your throne, O God, IS FOREV ...[text shortened]... means that after the millennial time Christ no longer is reigning on the throne over the earth.

Must be hard to have to twist the Bible to suit Witness Lee. I pity your plight

The bible says God will destroy all those that defile his temple. You say NO.
The Bble says there are some Christians who sin beyond what God is prepared to forgive. You say NO.

Here again... let the Bible speak and let people read:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 KJV)

Christ will deliver the kingdom to God AND BE SUBJECT TO GOD. GOD WILL RULE.

But sonship says NO!

Originally posted by Suzianne
I assume by the title of this thread, you mean when did the church and Christians begin believing that Jesus was the Son of God, and not when did Jesus actually become the Son of God, correct?

Because these two questions would have far different answers.

Yes they are different questions. I am using the phrasing of the DVD set I am now watching, that I referenced in the OP. According to the presenter, Ehrman, early followers of Jesus self-identified as Jews. Then some of them started believing Jesus became the Son of God upon being resurrected by God the Father. Then he ascended to heaven to "sit at the right hand of" God the father. This was called Exaltation Christology. EHrman says that over the course of the 4 gospels, Christ becomes the Son of God earlier and earlier (such as, when baptized or when born) until finally in John, He is seen as the Son of God from time immemorial.

These earliest Christians, since they believed Jesus became the Son of God upon His resurrection, would not have come to this belief before He died, since they didn't know He was going to die.

I assume you believe Jesus never "became" the Son of God, instead He was and is always the Son of God. And is God.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Must be hard to have to twist the Bible to suit Witness Lee. I pity your plight
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I quoted some passages from the Bible. Because you cannot deal with them you resort to bringing up the name Witness Lee.

You're the one having the hardship.


The bible says God will destroy all those that defile his temple. You say NO.
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No I didn't say No. I said yes.
And that was another thread.

You said the ones who are being warned about destroying the temple were those who are to be lost forever. I correctly pointed out that the ones being warned are those who are saved yet so as through fire.

The one having the hardship to make your case is you.


The Bble says there are some Christians who sin beyond what God is prepared to forgive. You say NO.
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The passage under discussion in that exchanged was the Christians who are saved yet lose a reward. They are SAVED yet so as through fire.

The one incompetent to make his case is you.
You are having the hardship. And for that reason you have to fall back on mentioning Witness Lee.

By the way, I consider it an honor to be able to say I learned from Lee and can quote him if I wish.

What else do you have ?


Here again... let the Bible speak and let people read:
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Sure, let them read First Corinthians 3:10-17 and come to discuss it. The ones building the church with inferior ,materials are the same ones who God says defire, mar, and damage the temple of God, ie. destroy it.

God warns that they may suffer loss, while being saved yet so as through fire, That is for them to be saved yet their old fallen man is destroyed.

The one having the hardship to derive losing salvation in that passage is you.


Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
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Nothing there denies that the Son of God has His throne forever and ever.


For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
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That says He reigns until His enemies are put under His feet. It does not say He does not have a throne for reigning forever and ever.

There is no reason why Jesus cannot reign until His enemies are put under His feet and continue afterwards to have the reign forever and ever as Hebrews 1:8 plainly says:

"But of the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Heb. 1:8)

Don't blame Witness Lee or me for your erroneous understanding of a temporary kingdom of Jesus the Son of God. Blame your own lopsided prejudice which uses one Bible passage to deny the other.


The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
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That doesn't change that the throne of the Son is forever and ever.


For he hath put all things under his feet.
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That also doesn't change Hebrews 1:8.


But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
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Whatever this means, and we will discuss its meaning - it cannot mean that Hebrews 1:8 is not true.

Whatever it means, and we will discuss its meaning - it cannot mean that the Son was not in obedience to the Father at any time before or during the millennial kingdom.

Are you suggesting that this passage tells us that the Son of God was not subject to the Father during His earthly ministry?

Are you suggesting that this passage teaches that the Son of God was in rebellion against the Father at any time before or during the millennial kingdom?

The obvious answer is that at no time was the Son not in submission to the Father during the millennium. He was never counted as one of the enemies of the Son.

The Son is not to be classed as death or as one of the enemies.
What is manifested is not that He is no longer an enemy of God.

Revelation 11:15 says -

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever. "

This is a divine announcement at the very beginning of the millennial kingdom. It is the TIME for the reward to the saints (v18).

If you say that "He" only refers to the Father, then you have the Father reigning during the millennial kingdom and afterwards forever and ever, which would mean that the Son is submissive to His reign.

If you say "He" only refers to the Son then you have the Son reigning during the millennial kingdom and afterwards forever and ever. So His reigning is not terminated.

If you believe as I do that "He" refers to the Triune God than you have the Triune God - Father and Son and Holy Spirit, reigning during the millennial kingdom and afterwards forever and ever.

Therefore whatever the 28th verse of First Corinthians means, and we can discuss latter its meaning, it cannot mean the termination of anyone of the Trinity's reigning so as to not be forever and ever.

And I have to suspend writing now for a moment. I am not finished discussing that passage with you yet.