Originally posted by bbarrNo. Because of your spiritual condition you will not be able to be with God when you die.
I will condemn you to Hell for all eternity unless you love me. The only way to avoid this fate is to love me. If this is the choice I give you, then am I loving?
He has, out of his love for you, created a cure for your spiritual condition.
He died and paid the price for the forgivness of your sin and he rose from the dead and defeated death to provide you with a new living Spirit that will allow you to be with Him when you die.
He is not going to force you to accept His love, but He offers it freely.
Originally posted by GlenRHis offer isn't free, it is coercive. It is coercive since he has designed the world such that you will be punished for all eternity if you refuse his help. He has created a forced choice scenario, much like I would if I threatened to shoot you if you didn't love me.
No. Because of your spiritual condition you will not be able to be with God when you die.
He has, out of his love for you, created a cure for your spiritual condition.
He died and paid the price for the forgivness of your sin and he rose from the dead and defeated death to provide you with a new living Spirit that will allow you to be with Him when you die.
He is not going to force you to accept His love, but He offers it freely.
Originally posted by bbarrAren't you confusing God and satan, Bbarr ? You cannot expect reasonable and acceptable results from your reasoning assuming God exists and at the same time assuming satan doesn't.
His offer isn't free, it is coercive. It is coercive since he has designed the world such that you will be punished for all eternity if you refuse his help. He has created a forced choice scenario, much like I would if I threatened to shoot you if you didn't love me.
Originally posted by bbarr... and by the way, you are forgetting that God is Life, meaning if you reject Him you choose, as a logical result, death.
His offer isn't free, it is coercive. It is coercive since he has designed the world such that you will be punished for all eternity if you refuse his help. He has created a forced choice scenario, much like I would if I threatened to shoot you if you didn't love me.
Originally posted by ivanhoeAs I said, I have no problem with ceasing to exist. My problem here is that rejecting God isn't claimed to result in the mere ceasing to exist, but rather to continue to exist in a state of torment.
... and by the way, you are forgetting that God is Life, meaning if you reject Him you choose, as a logical result, death.
Originally posted by GlenROriginally posted by jonas555
I wouldn't leave a seven year alone in a room with a loaded gun on the table, so why would God put the apple on the tree?
Originally posted by sonhouse
Because it didn't.
Originally posted by jonas555
I'm sorry, I don't understand. What does the "it" in your reply refer to? God?
I was referring to the "it" in sonhouse's reply to my post
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Originally posted by bbarrThe problem is that you look upon God as a (some sort of superhuman)person who punishes you for rejecting him.
As I said, I have no problem with ceasing to exist. My problem here is that rejecting God isn't claimed to result in the mere ceasing to exist, but rather to continue to exist in a state of torment.
If you start rejecting God by not chosing love, but hatred, not choosing life, but death and not choosing truth but lies, you will ultimately end up in the realm governed by those spiritual "ideals", the spiritual realm governed by satan.
Apparently dying is not the same as "ceasing to exist".
The lie exists as the negation of the truth. Death exists as the negation of life, satan exists as the negation of God.
I don't advise you this, but if you start believing serious lies and living them seriously, you will start to die spiritually and sooner or later you will end up spiritually dead. Suicide is the most serious and consequent result of this attitude and choice.
Death makes an end to life in the same way a lie makes an end to truth.
You will not simply "cease to exist" when you die, you will continue your life in the direction you were living here on earth, but now in the spiritual world.
However, whether you will reach the realm of the ultimate negation of everything God is, depends. I have never met someone who actually has done this, negating God, during his whole life with all his heart and all his mind and for 100%.
It is simply a wise thing to do to accept God for the one He is and not for the one He isn't .... or .... that God is and not that God isn't.
You can't have it both ways and in the meanwhile blame God (=He is) for this impossibility.
You'll have to choose. ( In your words: God gives you the choice, the freedom to choose for Him, and at the same time satan, the father of lies, puts the gun against your head.)
Originally posted by ivanhoeI appreciate your candor, but I don't look upon God in any way at all. I bring up these questions to those who conceive of God in a way that strikes me as absurdly anthropomorphic. My conception of anami is something I do not and will not talk about here, because I can't talk about it sensically. In fact, it is incorrect to even call it a conception. So, I appreciate your concern for my spiritual well-being, but rest assured that I am well within.
The problem is that you look upon God as a (some sort of superhuman)person who punishes you for rejecting him.
If you start rejecting God by not chosing love, but hatred, not choosing life, but death and not choosing truth but lies, you will ultimately end up in the realm governed by those spiritual "ideals", the spiritual realm governed by satan.
A ...[text shortened]... Him, and at the same time satan, the father of lies, puts the gun against your head.)
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Originally posted by bbarr[/i]The most basic question is whether one believes, thinks or "lives" that ***** (= I am, who will be) is or isn't.
I appreciate your candor, but I don't look upon God in any way at all. I bring up these questions to those who conceive of God in a way that strikes me as absurdly anthropomorphic. My conception of anami is something I do not and will not talk about here, because I can't talk about it sensically. In fact, it is incorrect to even call it a [i]concepti ...[text shortened]... I appreciate your concern for my spiritual well-being, but rest assured that I am well within.
Bbarr: "So, I appreciate your concern for my spiritual well-being, but rest assured that I am well within."
I'll have myself a nice cold beer as well ..... 😉
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Originally posted by GlenRWhat is the worth of obedience to God if a person He created cannot do otherwise? We were originally created with free will, in the divine likeness, for the purpose of fellowship with God Himself. Since God is holy and He made us in His image, He holds us to His standard of holiness. Because He holds us to His standard of holiness, disobeying His command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge had to be duly prosecuted.
Originally posted by epiphinehasIf God is responsible for our moral failure, then there is injustice in God.
I agree with you that we cannot blame our lack of control on God.
The question being answered is regarding God's allowing sin to exist.
He has allowed it from the begining. Since he allowed sin and it is his universe, I believe ulti at God is unjust. As you pointed out the scriptures are clear that God IS righteous.
Since God is holy, only entities perfectly conformed to His will (His law and commands) are allowed to dwell in His presence eternally. Any being not fully conformed to His will is no longer holy and is therefore doomed by God's holy law to 'decay and death'. This was God's warning to Adam and Eve.
God does not bear the responsibility for disobedience, as that would mean there is injustice in God.
"Remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow" (James 1:13-17).
It is telling that people are so quick to blame God, yet no one gives Satan a second thought. Satan is the one responsible for tempting and tricking Adam and Eve. Why doesn't he incite indignation?
I'll tell you why -- Because Satan's first lie was a distortion of God's command: '“Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?” (Genesis 3:1). "“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil" The woman was convinced." (Genesis 3:4-5).
But God was telling the truth. Ever since the first moment Eve believed the lie Satan told her about God, mankind has been distrustful of God. If not for God's grace, every man under the sun since then would be an enemy of God. Therefore, it is no wonder God incites more indignation than the true culprit, Satan.
But God said, "I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you" (John 14:18). Is it so surprising, then, that God's requirement for salvation is faith in Him? God is love and He is faithful; the longing of His heart is for our trust.
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Originally posted by epiphinehasWhy do so few Christians seem to believe "only entities perfectly conformed to His will (His law and commands) are allowed to dwell in His presence eternally."? It seems that the overwhelming majority of Christians are no more moral than the general public. What do you think it'll take to change this?
What is the worth of obedience to God if a person He created cannot do otherwise? We were originally created with free will, in the divine likeness, for the purpose of fellowship with God Himself. Since God is holy and He made us in His image, He holds us to His standard of holiness. Because He holds us to His standard of holiness, disobeying His comm m? God is love and He is faithful; the longing of His heart is for our trust.