Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"God . . . declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law" (Romans 3:26-28).
Why do so few Christians seem to believe "only entities perfectly conformed to His will (His law and commands) are allowed to dwell in His presence eternally."? It seems that the overwhelming majority of Christians are no more moral than the general public. What do you think it'll take to change this?
Christians are to strive diligently for holiness, nevertheless a Christian's salvation is not dependent on obeying the law. Not one Christian has earned the Lord's favor, and neither is a believer's pursuit of holiness driven by a desire to earn the Lord's favor (or at least it's not supposed to be). A believer's desire for holiness is driven by the Holy Spirit dwelling within him or her; only the Spirit can make someone holy.
You make a keen observation though: spiritual discipline is seriously lacking in Christendom. What might change that? I don't know. If I were to have a church of my own, I would stress spiritual discipline. Grace is opposed to earning, but not to effort.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeThe problem is that you look upon God as a (some sort of superhuman) person...
The problem is that you look upon God as a (some sort of superhuman)person who punishes you for rejecting him.
If you start rejecting God by not chosing love, but hatred, not choosing life, but death and not choosing truth but lies, you will ultimately end up in the realm governed by those spiritual "ideals", the spiritual realm governed by satan.
A Him, and at the same time satan, the father of lies, puts the gun against your head.)
The most basic question is whether one believes, thinks or "lives" that ***** (= I am, who will be) is or isn't.
Unlike bbarr, I am still crazy enough to try to talk about ___________. Inevitably I fail. (And all my talk is talk “after”.)
But, are we closer in our understanding of YHVH as “the one who/that is” or “who/which is” than I thought? In “trinitarian” terms: “ground-of-being, power/spirit-of-being and being-itself”? theos-pneuma-logos that lies behind the anthropomorphic and other “personal”* symbolism of God as a being that “exists” in distinction from and bounded by other (created) beings? (Another “figure”—albeit the “supreme figure”—standing out from the “ground” of being-ness?)
See how hard that is... 🙁 We become bewitched by our language, and can no longer see the reality behind it. We apply our (in this case, theological) grammar to the syntax of the cosmos—and end up only understanding what we ourselves have “grammatized.”
And then we think we know what we're talking about, because the talk becomes easy...
Am I hearing—not monism—but panentheism, perhaps? (Setting all Christology aside for the moment...) The God that is “who is above all and through all and in all”? (Ephesians 4:6) The God in whom “we live and move and have our being”? (Acts 17:28) The One who “fills all in all”? (Ephesians 1:23) And is all in all?
I have become a non-dualist/monist, but I do not argue against panentheism—which I find much more tenable than “God is a being who ‘exists’” theism. Dottewell pointed out, on philosophical grounds, that “no” is not a proper answer to the question, “Does God exist”—and neither is “yes.” Quite frankly, I think he would be right on theological grounds as well...
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* Yes, I realize the several nuances of this word theologically; hence the scare quotes.
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Originally posted by eatmybishopGuilt? How dare you! What would your Grandma think of you spending your time bashing Christians. 😛
when you look at the history of Christianity, have you ever wondered how much god likes to inflict guilt on the human race... for example: if god knows all things in advance, why did he let the snake into the garden..?
(another example of inflicting guilt on the human race)
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Originally posted by epiphinehasMatthew 7:21-23
"God . . . declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law" (Romans 3:26-28).
Christians are to strive dil , I would stress spiritual discipline. Grace is opposed to earning, but not to effort.
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
How do you reconcile the above verses from Matthew with the verses from Romans that you provided?
What you call 'spiritual discipline' is what I see as lack of belief. One can say that one believes in fidelity in marriage, but act to the contrary. Does that individual truly believe in fidelity? Or is he merely crying 'Lord, Lord'?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMatthew 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, ...[text shortened]... Does that individual truly believe in fidelity? Or is he merely crying 'Lord, Lord'?
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
How do you reconcile the above verses from Matthew with the verses from Romans that you provided?
The operative statement here is, "I never knew you."
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-29).
Notice the reasons which they give to Jesus when pleading for acceptance: "didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?" These were people who may have called Jesus, Lord, yet they had never obeyed Him.
Obeying Jesus means to believe in Him:
"Anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment" (John 3:36).
Consequently, their faith was in their religious works rather than in Jesus Christ. That is not to say that faith doesn't need works to be a living faith, but that without faith works amount to nothing.
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What you call 'spiritual discipline' is what I see as lack of belief.
What I call spiritual discipline includes, but is not limited to, charity, prayer, contemplation, solitude, meditating on God's word, fasting, confession, scripture memorization, praise, worship, tithing, first-fruits, etc., etc. I don't know why these would constitute lack of belief, as they are practices which allow the Holy Spirit room to work within an individual, furthering his or her sanctification. Maybe you misunderstood me.
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One can say that one believes in fidelity in marriage, but act to the contrary. Does that individual truly believe in fidelity? Or is he merely crying 'Lord, Lord'?
I would say that person is not necessarily beyond repentance. But I'd have to know the situation better to make that call. If there isn't any guilt for the infidelity, then I'd say, yes, that person is merely crying, "Lord, Lord". It's the Spirit's work to draw men to repentance. Christians are susceptible to sin, but repentance is obedience to the Spirit, bringing them back into right standing with God. Otherwise, a Christian's heart can be hardened to the point of falling away completely.
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Originally posted by epiphinehas[/b]
[b]Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from 's heart can be hardened to the point of falling away completely.
Sorry, what I meant to say was:
What you call lack of 'spiritual discipline' is what I see as lack of belief.
I guess I see the key statement in the Matthew verses as:
"he who does the will of my Father"
From your later comments it appear that you do also. That unless one has the ways of God in his heart and obeys them, he is not a 'believer', which seems to be the key to the Romans verses. Unfortunately it appears that the overwhelming majority of Christians do not obey. It appears that for them, 'belief' means to proclaim "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour" and they are then granted eternal forgiveness without the requirement of repentance. What is the source of this teaching and what can be done to rectify it?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you have Joel Osteen in mind and his Osteenites, I wonder? 🙂
Unfortunately it appears that the overwhelming majority of Christians do not obey. It appears that for them, 'belief' means to proclaim "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour" and they are then granted eternal forgiveness without the requirement of repentance. What is the source of this teaching and what can be done to rectify it?
Repentance is key. The definition of repentance is a turning away from a life of sin and renouncing it completely. Without it there can be no forgiveness. People are just fooling themselves if their whole faith is based on the simple recitation of a 'sinner's prayer' without true repentance.
I think the source of this teaching is greed. People wanting to get something from God or from other people -- blessings from God and approval from people. There's a whole 'Christian' industry based in that kind of greed, and an equally shallow 'god' erected with Christ's face who promises prosperity, new houses, land, victory, happiness, good feelings, riches, lavish lifestyles, etc. A 'church' where greed is soothed and coddled as if it were a virtue.
I think it's called, 'the prosperity gospel.' It's an extremely shallow 'Americanized' form of Christianity for the masses. I don't really know what can be done to rectify it. Maybe a good healthy dose of persecution? Dying for Christ is on a completely different level than just having to thank Him for your new Mercedes. If that were to happen, I suspect many so-called Christians would fall away from the faith. After so many years of being trained to be greedy, it might be hard to let go of your sense of self-preservation.
I don't know, that's just my initial impression of the situation and a possible remedy. What are your thoughts?
Originally posted by eatmybishopIn reality or truth only the guilty need feel guilty, in truth that is what
when you look at the history of Christianity, have you ever wondered how much god likes to inflict guilt on the human race... for example: if god knows all things in advance, why did he let the snake into the garden..?
(another example of inflicting guilt on the human race)
it is. Had there been no sin, there would be no guilt for it. You want to
blame God and or the snake, how about just letting the chips fall
or guilt be where it belongs, with man and move on. Being tempted
does not mean one has to sin.
Kelly
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Originally posted by epiphinehasThose who follow the 'prosperity gospel' are probably the most blatant, but I guess I see it as being so much more pervasive. Those with the maturity to dispense with the desires of the self or ego (pride, greed, lust, seeking sensory experiences, etc.) are in an extremely small minority. But then, it doesn't seem like people are being properly ministered to do so.
Do you have Joel Osteen in mind and his Osteenites, I wonder? 🙂
Repentance is key. The definition of repentance is a turning away from a life of sin and renouncing it completely. Without it there can be no forgiveness. People are just fooling themselves if their whole faith is based on the simple recitation of a 'sinner's prayer' without true rep impression of the situation and a possible remedy. What are your thoughts?
I have to wonder if part of it is an effort on the part of the church (or ministers) to attract a larger following even on a small scale. There's an air of 'marketing' about it: An emphasis on making people 'feel good' about themselves, creating an environment of inclusiveness, pleasantness and courtesy, making it 'fun', etc. It saddens me to say that perhaps it's been reduced to a commodity.
On an individual basis, I guess the reason is as old as mankind: A lack of maturity that's rooted in the love of oneself.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world?" (1 Corinthians 3:1-3).
Those who follow the 'prosperity gospel' are probably the most blatant, but I guess I see it as being so much more pervasive. Those with the maturity to dispense with the desires of the self or ego (pride, greed, lust, seeking sensory experiences, etc.) are in an extremely small minority. But then, it doesn't seem like people are being properly ministered ...[text shortened]... eason is as old as mankind: A lack of maturity that's rooted in the love of oneself.
"There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen. You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food. For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn’t know how to do what is right" (Hebrews 5:11-13).
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Thank God He is patient... 😉
Originally posted by epiphinehasUnfortunately we seem to be regressing and I don't see it turning around anytime soon.
"Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for ...[text shortened]... __________________________________________________________
Thank God He is patient... 😉