who are the 144,000?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry i did not realise that i was being interrogated, again!

Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth. And we have no word from Lazarus as to what happened to him while he was dead.

It is a good point. However, it is not enough to deal, I think, with the two passages from Paul's writings. It is not enough for me to sweep them under the rug because Jesus said that the "dead" Lazarus was sleeping.

And there is another matter. Jesus told the thief beside Him that on that very day that they died, he would be with Him (Jesus) "in Paradise".

Now He could not have meant heaven. The reason is that after He rose from the dead He told Mary "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17)

Now if after three days of being dead He had not yet ascended to the Father, presumably in Heaven, and on the day of His death, He and the believing thief were together in "Paradise", then where were they?

Are you going to postulate that non-existence is "Paradise"?


I don't mean to appear to interrogate you Inquisition style.
I think we should stop conversing with each other.
The issue here is Christ. You and I should not become the issue.

I'll try to stop questioning you. But if there are some Jehovah's Witnesses out there who want to try an answer, I will examine their reply and if necessary reply to them

Originally posted by jaywill
Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth. And we have no word from Lazarus as to what happened to him while he was dead.

It is a good point. However, it is not enough to deal, I think, with the two passages from Paul's writings. It is not enough for me to sweep them under the rug because Jesus said that ...[text shortened]... want to try an answer, I will examine their reply and if necessary reply to them

Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth

i dont know what this means?

And we have no word from Lazarus as to what happened to him while he was dead.

if Lazarus went to heaven why would the Christ bring him back to the earth? You would think that at least the scriptures would mention something of his heavenly sojourn, but no they are silent.

you may sweep what you want under your figurative rug, whether it is good or not i do not know, but there it is, in scripture.

the whole matter of the passage with regard to the thief beside him is one of controversy, for it entirely depends upon the placing of the comma, born again christians etc like to state that it was that very day, it is well known, what is true, is that the earth is not a paradise and that paradise is some future event.

and yes he did not mean heaven.

i do not know why you think that non existence might be paradise, for the scriptures are quite clear as Gavelstone has pointed out, we are awaiting a real and physical paradise on earth, no war, no pollution, no crime, no hatred, no prejudice, no hunger and no sickness. this was Gods original purpose for the earth and it has not changed. that humans have the capacity to live forever i do not deny, once the effects of sin are gone, we may return to perfection, physical and spiritual perfection, and thus death shall be conquered.

if you do not want to speak to me that is fine, i do not mind, but i have learnt from the forum the futility of venting ones anger and frustration, there have been times where i have really regretted what i have written, i did not like it and thus i have withdrawn.

I do not mind the questions but it is the way they are phrased, for one can hurl a ball at someone with intent and one can gently throw it.

i really did want to ask you a question or two but you did not permit me and the thread gets spun longer and longer and the sentiment and the will to express it were lost in the melee.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth

i dont know what this means?

And we have no word from Lazarus as to what happened to him while he was dead.

if Lazarus went to heaven why would the Christ bring him back to the earth? You would think that at least the scriptures would mention someth ...[text shortened]... ts spun longer and longer and the sentiment and the will to express it were lost in the melee.

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Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth

i dont know what this means?
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It simply means that I understand the New Testament usage of "sleep" refers saints (Christians) who have died. I do not think that the usage of the word is enough to build a case that the souls of the dead are non-existent, unconscious of existence, or annihilated.

The simple existence of the word "sleep" does not, IMO, furnish enough ground to adopt that stance.

Ie. "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." (1 Cor. 15:17,18)


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if Lazarus went to heaven why would the Christ bring him back to the earth? You would think that at least the scriptures would mention something of his heavenly sojourn, but no they are silent.
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I never said that Lazarus went to heaven. Did I say that? No I did not.

I do not believe that "Abraham's bosom" was in heaven.

And one point I made was precisely that Jesus could not have taken the believing thief to heaven on that day of he and Jesus died on their crosses. Christ went to be "in the heart of the earth" immediately and had not even ascended yet to the Father when Mary met Him after His resurrection.

So where did they go? Do you think that their souls were annihilated into non-existence ? If I believed that then I would have to believe that "this day you will be with me in Paradise" means that annihilation into non-existence is "Paradise".

That is a totally absurd thought, IMO.

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the whole matter of the passage with regard to the thief beside him is one of controversy, for it entirely depends upon the placing of the comma, born again christians etc like to state that it was that very day, it is well known, what is true, is that the earth is not a paradise and that paradise is some future event.
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On the day of their death, Jesus promised, they would be together in Paradise.

Do you think the Bible is teaching that "THIS DAY" there refered to some other day beside the day of Christ's death?

I do not think so. Why? I think that when the thief asked Jesus to REMEMBER Him WHEN He comes into His kingdom, Jesus is implying that He doesn't have to wait for that because THIS VERY DAY WE DIE, WE WILL BE TOGETHER IN PARADISE.

There is a connection between His kingdom and Paradise. In Paradise there is peace. In Paradise there is comfort. It is close to the nature of His kingdom. And the thief and He, though they are being horribly tortured and murdered at the moment, will be in such a Paradise before the day is over.

I do not think that "this day" refers to another day?

Do you believe that "Paradise" means NON-EXISTENCE and ANNIHILATION?

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and yes he did not mean heaven.
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Thankyou. On that then we agree.

But how could Paradise be annihilation of the soul into non-existence? Why would Jesus call such a state "Paradise"?

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i do not know why you think that non existence might be paradise, for the scriptures are quite clear as Gavelstone has pointed out, we are awaiting a real and physical paradise on earth, no war, no pollution, no crime, no hatred, no prejudice, no hunger and no sickness. this was Gods original purpose for the earth and it has not changed.
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The problem is not mine Robbie. The problem is yours.

Where did they go? If their souls became non-existent in annihilation then you must agree that Jesus is discribing such a state as "Paradise".

It is not a problem for me. It is a problem for the Jehovah Witness who is taught that death is the annihilation of the soul.

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that humans have the capacity to live forever i do not deny, once the effects of sin are gone, we may return to perfection, physical and spiritual perfection, and thus death shall be conquered.
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Thanks for attempting an answer to the best of your ability.

However, I don't think you have answered the problem. So I think you should think about it and discuss it with your teachers.

And the issue is not so much about the eternal existence of the soul. It is about WHERE did Jesus and the believing thief GO to be in Paradise on the day of their death.

That is all. The best way to answer is with the Bible itself. For wherever Jesus went, the believing thief went with Him.

I submit two passages for your consideration:

"Now this, He [Christ] ascended," what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended, He is also the One who ascended ... " (Ephesians 4:8,9)

Christ, during the three days of His death, DESCENDED into "the lower parts of the earth".

Paradise at that time must have been in "the lower parts of the earth".

"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)

Jesus went to "the heart of the earth" for three days and three nights. Could it be that "the lower parts of the earth" is another way of discribing "the heart of the earth"? Of course, yes.

And the Bible teaches that IF man could dig down deep enough man could dig down into Hades:

"Though they dig into Sheol, From there My hand will take them; though they go up into heaven, from there I will bring them down." (Amos 9:2)

"Shoel [ covered to men's eyes ] is naked before Him" (See Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11)

Think about it for awhile.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==================================
Lazarus was "sleeping" from the standpoint of the rest of living human beings on the earth

i dont know what this means?
==================================

It simply means that I understand the New Testament usage of "sleep" refers saints (Christians) who have died. I do not think that the usage ...[text shortened]... erbs 15:11)[/b]

Think about it for awhile.[/b]

i am sorry but this really does make no sense to me,

sleep means the saints???

will there be any women included in that number?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry but this really does make no sense to me,

sleep means the saints???

Without double checking, in the New Testament, I think "sleep" is reserved for those who have died in Christ, in other words, Christian believers,

All Christian believers are SAINTS - (1 Cor. 1:2)

Robbie, do yourself a big favor and get yourself a Recovery Version of the Bible with FOOTNOTES. It will pay for itself.

www.recoveryversion.org.

The New Testament portion only, is FREE - www.biblesforamerica.org.

Originally posted by duecer
will there be any women included in that number?

is this another one of your trick questions? are you going to refer to the passage which states they are virgins and have not defiled themselves with women? until you understand that the 144,000 are spiritual Jews , and the application is spiritual, you will understand nothing with regard to the Holy Nation.

Originally posted by jaywill
Without double checking, in the New Testament, I think "sleep" is reserved for those who have died in Christ, in other words, Christian believers,

All Christian believers are SAINTS - [b](1 Cor. 1:2)

Robbie, do yourself a big favor and get yourself a Recovery Version of the Bible with FOOTNOTES. It will pay for itself.

www.recoveryversion.org.

The New Testament portion only, is FREE - www.biblesforamerica.org.[/b]

this is all very well but the scriptures state that 'all those in the memorial tombs', both righteous and unrighteous will hear his voice and come out, therefore it cannot simply refer to the faithful Christians as you have tried to assert.

Originally posted by duecer
will there be any women included in that number?

Do you mean the 144,000 ?

I think women must be included in that number too. Justification for the belief will have to be given latter.

I could be wrong. But I think at least "two women" grinding at a mill, one is taken one is left, should indicate that some living sisters will be raptured to heaven in the end times.

If she is not one of the 144,000 it doesn't matter too much to me. In principle she has been raptured for being ready, just like the 144,000 who were purchased from the earth and suddenly appear in Heaven having been transported there.

Sisters, females, certainly are not left out of any of these blessings as far as I can see.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this is all very well but the scriptures state that 'all those in the memorial tombs', both righteous and unrighteous will hear his voice and come out, therefore it cannot simply refer to the faithful Christians as you have tried to assert.

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his is all very well but the scriptures state that 'all those in the memorial tombs', both righteous and unrighteous will hear his voice and come out, therefore it cannot simply refer to the faithful Christians as you have tried to assert.
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Hold on. I did not say that only Christians are dead.

I admit that perhaps "sleep" refers to more than just Christians. I don't think so, but I would have to study it.

Lastly, it really makes no difference to the point. Sleep, whether to believers in Jesus or to all who die, is not enough to indicate the non-existence of the soul.

Don't be distracted from the point.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==================================
his is all very well but the scriptures state that 'all those in the memorial tombs', both righteous and unrighteous will hear his voice and come out, therefore it cannot simply refer to the faithful Christians as you have tried to assert.
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Hold on. I did not say that ...[text shortened]... enough to indicate the non-existence of the soul.

Don't be distracted from the point.[/b]

it is in harmony with what is written in the Bible though, that the dead are conscious of nothing at all.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
is this another one of your trick questions? are you going to refer to the passage which states they are virgins and have not defiled themselves with women? until you understand that the 144,000 are spiritual Jews , and the application is spiritual, you will understand nothing with regard to the Holy Nation.

I think its a legitamate qeustion. One should either takes a literal view or an interpretive view of this passage, it's poor exegesis to mix the two.

Originally posted by duecer
I think its a legitamate qeustion. One should either takes a literal view or an interpretive view of this passage, it's poor exegesis to mix the two.

yes quite, however a literal view is not in harmony with the scriptures in their entirety. Yes we hold that there are members of the 144,000 who were ladies.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is in harmony with what is written in the Bible though, that the dead are conscious of nothing at all.

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it is in harmony with what is written in the Bible though, that the dead are conscious of nothing at all.
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I don't think we should take Ecclesiastes as the sole revelation on the matter. The same book says " ... money is the answer to everything" (Ecc. 10:19).

Neither would I regard that verse about money as the sole and last word on the solution to all human problems.

As a serious Bible student I learn not just what is written, but what also is written. You are stretching the significance of Solomon's utterance further than it should be stretched.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================
it is in harmony with what is written in the Bible though, that the dead are conscious of nothing at all.
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I don't think we should take Ecclesiastes as the sole revelation on the matter. The same book says " ... money is the answer to everything" (Ecc. 10:19).

Neither w ...[text shortened]... are stretching the significance of Solomon's utterance further than it should be stretched.[/b]

all scripture is inspired of God end beneficial for setting things straight, so that the man of God may be fully competent, equipped for very good work - 2 Timothy 3:16,17