1. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Dec '15 11:05
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    If you hadn't told us otherwise I would have thought all of those were straight from the Bible. Of course I could find much worse in the Bible. I am sure the Jews were told to kill those wedded wives rather than marry them and captives too were mostly to be slaughtered not 'released by grace or ransom'.

    I also wonder what you thought was relevant in Sura 8:70 or did you just cut/paste without actually reading it?
    As I said before, I believe it is referring to those captured by Muhammad and he and his forces are taking things from the captives and he is telling them that if there is any good in them, that they would convert to Islam which is better than what was taken from them.
  2. PenTesting
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    08 Dec '15 11:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    From the Quran

    [b]One goal of jihad is to make Islam superior over all religions (Suras 9:33, 48:28, and 61:9).


    Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .

    Sura 33:26 speaks of killing captured men and enslaving women and children.

    S ...[text shortened]... e what the prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith[/b]
    Im no supporter of Islam, but I cannot see where the passage you quoted supports the statements made by Dasa that :".. the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression..".

    Maybe you can explain further.
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    08 Dec '15 12:28
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    As I said before, I believe it is referring to those captured by Muhammad and he and his forces are taking things from the captives and he is telling them that if there is any good in them, that they would convert to Islam which is better than what was taken from them.
    So generally much better than Christians that preferred to carry out forced baptisms and then execute their captives.
  4. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 21:03
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Im no supporter of Islam, but I cannot see where the passage you quoted supports the statements made by Dasa that :".. the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression..".

    Maybe you can explain further.
    Hi, Raj. To do that, he would have to account for such things as historical references, context generally, how the particular contextual dialectic of the Quran works to determine meaning, etc., etc. [Some of what’s in the Quran, for example, references, and is limited to, specific historical events—and only would apply to analogous situations.]

    You know, when you and I have disagreed, at least we’ve understood the groundwork that needs to be laid—and that’s why you’ve given me a lot of food for thought, and I always have to consider that I might be wrong. When I’ve thought that I was referencing appropriate context, you’ve proven me wrong a time or two. 🙂 And sometimes, I confess, I think you’ve been more right than I have been. (That is, maybe I have overemphasized grace so much because I feel that I need so much—maybe.)

    But here, the implicit assumption is that one can just rip verses out of context (or any other hermeneutical considerations), that all Muslims follow (any or all) hadith, etc. The aim is to paint Muslims (or at least “True Muslims” ) as some monolithic group—vis-à-vis Christians, which I suppose are also to be some monolithic group?

    As always, hope you are well. (I always think of you in terms of that photo: you sitting in your own establishment with that tall schooner of beer! 🙂 )
  5. Standard memberDeepThought
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    08 Dec '15 21:44
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    From the Quran

    [b]One goal of jihad is to make Islam superior over all religions (Suras 9:33, 48:28, and 61:9).


    Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .

    Sura 33:26 speaks of killing captured men and enslaving women and children.

    S ...[text shortened]... e what the prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith[/b]
    Ok., given you've cherry picked quotations from the Quran (I'm more used to the spelling Koran but since this is how people are spelling it here), can you explain what is wrong with Sura 47:4
    You quote Sura 47:4 as saying:
    When you meet the disbelievers in battle, strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated, bind any captives firmly—later you can release them by grace or by ransom—until the toils of war have ended.
    Given the context is a battle I don't see the problem with striking the infidel in the neck. The instruction is to ensure captives are secure and to only release them once the war is over. This is sounding compliant with modern rules of war to me. So I wonder what the problem you have with this particular quotation is?
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 21:591 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Ok., given you've cherry picked quotations from the Quran (I'm more used to the spelling Koran but since this is how people are spelling it here), can you explain what is wrong with Sura 47:4[quote]You quote Sura 47:4 as saying:
    When you meet the disbelievers in battle, strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated, bind any captives firmly—later ...[text shortened]... rn rules of war to me. So I wonder what the problem you have with this particular quotation is?
    You’re quite right. From something I posted elsewhere recently—

    “I once participated, foolishly, in a “game” where someone on here listed verse after verse of the Qur’an out of context, with no consideration of historical references or the poetic language involved, or disagreements among various Muslims about interpretation and meaning of the Arabic—while demanding that anyone who disagreed do all the research on every verse that he cited; then he simply proceeded to cite some more the same way. I will not play that game again.”

    You can’t win that game.

    ___________________________________

    EDIT: Of course, a Christian pacifist has some legitimacy for opposing killing in battle, in terms of adhering to a clear moral principle without regard to who "the enemy" might be.
  7. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 22:12
    Originally posted by whodey
    Jesus pointed to children and said that the kingdom of God belongs to such people.

    Yes, it is meant to be simple.
    So, to Muslims (as well as others) who are like children, the kingdom of God belongs? Gotcha.
  8. Standard memberDeepThought
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    08 Dec '15 23:21
    Originally posted by vistesd
    You’re quite right. From something I posted elsewhere recently—

    “I once participated, foolishly, in a “game” where someone on here listed verse after verse of the Qur’an out of context, with no consideration of historical references or the poetic language involved, or disagreements among various Muslims about interpretation and meaning of the Arabic—whil ...[text shortened]... tle, in terms of adhering to a clear moral principle without regard to who "the enemy" might be.
    Hi vistesd,

    yes, I saw that post and it's relevant to this particular sura (=verse?). I was aware of the problem with the fact that there was a battle. I'm a complete hawk when it comes to defence (where defence means defence and not attack, as it so often seems to mean) and if the war is defensive then (with the possible exception of the ransom, which was standard in those days) it's actually sounding Geneva compliant and I agree with it. However, R.J. didn't supply the context and really that verse has to be judged in the context of what the Islamic concept of a "just" war is.

    I'm not sure about Pacifism and Christianity, the message about turning the other cheek seems to me to be advice concerning shaming an individual who has hit one, so it's in the context of interpersonal relations rather than relations between States. Early Christianity was fairly Millennial so I don't think that they particularly expected to be a State religion and have to either sanction or refuse to sanction warfare. One could take a wide interpretation of "render unto Caesar..." to mean that if military service is compulsory then one should enter military service, but that seems to jar with the generally pacifistic message in the Gospels. I'm not sure that there is much in the New Testament as they had the existing State of Rome and were not trying to create a new state, whereas Mohammed was engaging in a state building exercise and could not avoid questions of warfare.

    Be well.
  9. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 23:24
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Hi vistesd,

    yes, I saw that post and it's relevant to this particular sura (=verse?). I was aware of the problem with the fact that there was a battle. I'm a complete hawk when it comes to defence (where defence means defence and not attack, as it so often seems to mean) and if the war is defensive then (with the possible exception of the ransom, wh ...[text shortened]... was engaging in a state building exercise and could not avoid questions of warfare.

    Be well.
    I don't disagree. I just mentioned that because Christians who are not pacifists shouldn't have any problem with that surah (as you point out).

    Be well, too.
  10. Standard memberDasa
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    08 Dec '15 23:41
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b] . . .the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression . . .

    I am not Muslim. But I have actually read the Quran, more than once, and so I now know that you are a rank liar.[/b]
    "QUOTE from the Quran; "'Strike terror into their hearts and slay them where you find them'"...........end quote

    '"THEM"' is you and me.

    Now go away and read the Quran 10 more times and you might realize something.

    There are over 100 verses in the Quran inciting violence against men women and children

    '"Slay them"' means murder them. (men women and children)
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 23:46
    Originally posted by Dasa
    "QUOTE from the Quran; "'Strike terror into their hearts and slay them where you find them'"...........end quote

    '"THEM"' is you and me.

    Now go away and read the Quran 10 more times and you might realize something.

    There are over 100 verses in the Quran inciting violence against men women and children

    '"Slay them"' means murder them. (men women and children)
    No it does not. That reference refers to enemies who violate religious sanctuaries. "Them" is not you and me.

    You might be the single most dishonest person who has ever posted on here.
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    09 Dec '15 00:43
    From http://www.harekrsna.de/artikel/islam.htm#5.--


    Srila Prabhupada: If you purchase the Bhagavad-gita, if you purchase the Bible, if you purchase the Qur'an, or... There are so many literatures. They are also authorised. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, 16/12/66)

    Srila Prabhupada: So in the Qur'an there is God-consciousness, in the Bible there is God-consciousness, in the Vedas there is God-consciousness. (Lecture on Chaitanya-charitamrita, 24/02/71)

    Srila Prabhupada: If you find that by following some religious principles you are developing your love of God, then it is perfect. It doesn't matter whether it is the Bible or the Qur'an or the Bhagavad-gita; it doesn't matter. (Lecture, 18/10/68)

    Srila Prabhupada: I have seen in Delhi, near Jama Masjid (Mosque) the small Muslim boys, they are reading the Qur'an. That is very good.' From childhood they should learn, learn about God. (Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam, 10/11/73)

    _________________________________________________

    So who is telling the truth about the Qur’an, Dasa? You or Srila Prabhupada?
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    09 Dec '15 07:11
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Im no supporter of Islam, but I cannot see where the passage you quoted supports the statements made by Dasa that :".. the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression..".

    Maybe you can explain further.
    Many of the Muslims use saying of Muhammad and the Quran (Koran) to support their rape, murder, torture, and oppression and those writtings are in their original language. So certainly they should understand it better than we. But Muslims are notorious liars when it comes to being up front with infidels like us. 😏
  14. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Dec '15 18:172 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Many of the Muslims use saying of Muhammad and the Quran (Koran) to support their rape, murder, torture, and oppression and those writtings are in their original language. So certainly they should understand it better than we. But Muslims are notorious liars when it comes to being up front with infidels like us. 😏
    And of course Christians ALWAYS tell the "truth".

    You cite Quran passages but what about bible passages, like Leviticus. When we talk about Leviticus, Oh, we don't follow the OT any more, we are Christians so we follow the NT.

    Thing is, why do you include Leviticus if you don't intend to follow, like a parent can kill their children if the kids give them lip. Back then it must have been totally legal for a parent to kill a kid if the kid gives the parent attitude,
  15. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Dec '15 21:501 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    From http://www.harekrsna.de/artikel/islam.htm#5.--


    Srila Prabhupada: If you purchase the Bhagavad-gita, if you purchase the Bible, if you purchase the Qur'an, or... There are so many literatures. They are also authorised. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, 16/12/66)

    Srila Prabhupada: So in the Qur'an there is God-consciousness, in the Bible there is God-con ...[text shortened]... _______________

    So who is telling the truth about the Qur’an, Dasa? You or Srila Prabhupada?
    Why do you defend that which is not defendable.

    Every second.... a Muslim is torturing or raping or murdering or thieving or lying on behalf of the Quran and Allah.

    And by the way........................Prubhupada always kept the enemy in check by praising its tiny tiny tiny connection with God even if that religion is mainly false.

    Its called .................( not rattling the snakes cage)

    There is a river of blood coming from the Muslim camp and you want to defend Islam.

    You are in need of a mental evaluation by a doctor.
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