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    14 May '09 20:39
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    Sorry, I hit the return key withuout writind anything!

    Of course I know who Jesus is, what I am interested in is the significance Jesus hold for individuals, and especially what makes him unique?
    Does anybody feel that they ''know' Jesus?
    What does Jesus mean to you?
    What do you suppose the character of Jesus is like?

    Let your answers and feelings flood in! I want to know as much as possible!
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    14 May '09 20:43
    Apologies for the misplaced question mark; these things annoy me too!
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    14 May '09 20:492 edits
    Originally posted by 3Samuel
    Sorry, I hit the return key withuout writind anything!

    Of course I know who Jesus is, what I am interested in is the significance Jesus hold for individuals, and especially what makes him unique?
    Does anybody feel that they ''know' Jesus?
    What does Jesus mean to you?
    What do you suppose the character of Jesus is like?

    Let your answers and feelings flood in! I want to know as much as possible!
    Hi, all we really know is written in the gospel accounts, where you can deduce certain aspects of his personality. above all he was a teacher, a great teacher, i would say even he greatest teacher to have walked the earth. why, for he was able to crystallize the most profound thoughts, in a simple yet unaffected way and convey them to others, so that they could also grasp their significance, the real art of teaching. thus when we study the gospels and gain accurate knowledge, it naturally leads to an insight into the personality of God, for the scriptures state, that the Christ, while not being God almighty (this is a matter of controversy among Christians, but i am quite clear in my own mind) was a reflection of God, thus by closely considering the life and personality of the Christ, we can gain knowledge of the most high himself. πŸ™‚
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    15 May '09 04:38
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Hi, all we really know is written in the gospel accounts, where you can deduce certain aspects of his personality.
    A lot of Christians claim to commune with him directly and thus have far more knowledge of him than simply via the gospels. What are your beliefs in this regard? Do you pray to Jesus or directly to God? Does either ever talk back?
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    15 May '09 06:533 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    A lot of Christians claim to commune with him directly and thus have far more knowledge of him than simply via the gospels. What are your beliefs in this regard? Do you pray to Jesus or directly to God? Does either ever talk back?
    yes Christians do pray to Christ, but i hold that this is entirely erroneous, for the scriptures state that the Christ himself was a created entity (colossians 1:15), thus they are unduly worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

    Also Christ himself gave a very clear pattern, when the disciples asked him how they should pray, this is written in the scriptures at Matthew Chapter 6 beginning verse 9, and is known as the Lords prayer, you are perhaps aware of it, for it begins, 'our father in the heavens', thus Christ himself prayed directly and exclusively to God, to think that he was praying to himself is absurd, although how trinitarians will argue this, i do not know.

    they may try to cite Philippians 2 where the apostle Paul describes the great influence that Jesus position exerts on prayer, “For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:9-11.

    However do the words “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend” mean that we are to pray to him? absolutely not! The Greek phrase here involved “denotes the name upon which those that bow the knee unite, on which united all worship. The name which Jesus has received moves all to united adoration.” (A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G. B. Winer)

    Indeed, for a prayer to be acceptable, it must be presented “in the name of Jesus,” but it is, nevertheless, addressed to God and serves to his praise! For this reason, Paul says: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Philippians 4:6.

    Whether the devotees have a 'greater knowledge', of God or Christ, i do not know, for it is a purely subjective matter, although i do not see how prayer increases nor decreases our knowledge, for knowledge is gained through study, not prayer. The scriptures describe God as being 'the hearer of prayer', and rather interestingly, while God has given Christ all authority on heaven and on earth, the one privilege that he has reserved for himself, is that he remains exclusively, the hearer of prayer! is it not awesome?
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    15 May '09 08:35
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes Christians do pray to Christ, but i hold that this is entirely erroneous, for the scriptures state that the Christ himself was a created entity (colossians 1:15), thus they are unduly worshiping the creation rather than the creator.
    I take it then that you do not ever get any response from God and believe that those Christians who do feel that they do get responses are delusional?
  8. Standard memberblack beetle
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    15 May '09 08:35
    Originally posted by 3Samuel
    Sorry, I hit the return key withuout writind anything!

    Of course I know who Jesus is, what I am interested in is the significance Jesus hold for individuals, and especially what makes him unique?
    Does anybody feel that they ''know' Jesus?
    What does Jesus mean to you?
    What do you suppose the character of Jesus is like?

    Let your answers and feelings flood in! I want to know as much as possible!
    Jesus is a Socialist, as our friend rwingett explained perfectly in detail at the thread “Was Jesus a Socialist?” at Spirituality forum😡
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    15 May '09 08:521 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I take it then that you do not ever get any response from God and believe that those Christians who do feel that they do get responses are delusional?
    no, why would that be the case? for as i have stated, he is 'the hearer of prayer', therefore i have no valid reason to doubt that this is not the case.

    perhaps you should consider the different types of prayer that may be offered, for not all prayers are offered with the view to receiving something or even a response, for example you may simply offer a prayer of praise, etc etc.

    how can i speak for others ?, prayers, with the exception of public prayers, are personal and we have the assurance from the Christ, again which i have no valid reason to doubt, which assures us that if we ask 'anything', from the father in his name, he will hear us.

    it may interest you to note that there are certain conditions which may negate the petitioners prayer before God.
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    15 May '09 15:337 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes Christians do pray to Christ, but i hold that this is entirely erroneous, for the scriptures state that the Christ himself was a created entity (colossians 1:15), thus they are unduly worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

    Also Christ himself gave a very clear pattern, when the disciples asked him how they should pray, this is writ ved for himself, is that he remains exclusively, the hearer of prayer! is it not awesome?
    Christ is the mingling of God and man. Christ is the union of Divinity and Humanity - the God-man. But I will address some smaller points raised below:

    ======================================
    yes Christians do pray to Christ, but i hold that this is entirely erroneous, for the scriptures state that the Christ himself was a created entity (colossians 1:15), thus they are unduly worshiping the creation rather than the creator.
    =======================================


    Prayer to Jesus Christ is entirely scriptural.

    1.) The first Christian martyr Stephen prayed, calling on the Lord Jesus and petitioning Him for mercy on his persecutors.

    "And they stoned Stephen as he called upon [the Lord] and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit! And kneeling down, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them." (See Acts 7:59,60)

    2.) Paul also prayed and petitioned the Lord Jesus for his physical ailment three times.

    " ... there was given me a thorn in the flesh ... Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." (See 2 Cor. 12:7-9)

    The "Lord" in Second Corinthians refers to the Lord Jesus Christ -

    "For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)

    "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 1:2)

    Paul and Stephen both prayed to the Lord Jesus Robbie. I am afraid you have been mistaught by someone.

    The remaining comments are therefore invalid (as they relate to the point of praying to Jesus) and do not need to be addressed.
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    15 May '09 15:582 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Christ is the mingling of God and man. Christ is the union of Divinity and Humanity - the God-man. But I will address some smaller points raised below:

    ======================================
    yes Christians do pray to Christ, but i hold that this is entirely erroneous, for the scriptures state that the Christ himself was a created entity (c lid (as they relate to the point of praying to Jesus) and do not need to be addressed.
    i knew you would raise these points jaywill, it was inevitable my friend, do you really want me to address them one by one,

    oh well jaywill, if you must

    firstly Stephen saw a vision of Christ in the heavens, seated at the right hand of God, this event did not constitute a prayer, yes he spoke directly with the Christ, but this does not mean it was a prayer, for to do so would also mean that when Adam and Eve spoke with God in a similar and direct fashion, it was a prayerful act, this was clearly not the case! thus your reasoning is entirely erroneous my friend, entirely.


    for example the apostle John also received a vision of the Christ as you are very well aware, revelation 1:17 to 19, but was this a prayer, hardly could it be the case, for it was simply a vision, as in the case of Stephen, thus you must bear in mind my friend that simply speaking to God does not in itself constitute a prayer! therefore it would be incorrect to cite Stephens or Johns talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him, no, siree!

    the whole fallacious argument of Christians who pray to Christ fails because of their inability to correctly and accurately distinguish the actual being of the Christ, prehuman, yes, creation, yes, with a beginning, yes, always existed, no, son of God yes, exalted, undoubtedly, King yes! God almighty, no way!

    once you come to appreciate this Jaywill, then all other things become crystal clear, no mysticism, no mingling of man and God, but the son of God and King of Gods Kingdom, and the greatest teacher ever to have trodden the earth.
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    15 May '09 17:007 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i knew you would raise these points jaywill, it was inevitable my friend, do you really want me to address them one by one,

    oh well jaywill, if you must

    firstly Stephen saw a vision of Christ in the heavens, seated at the right hand of God, this event did not constitute a prayer, yes he spoke directly with the Christ, but this does not mean it ...[text shortened]... he son of God and King of Gods Kingdom, and the greatest teacher ever to have trodden the earth.
    ====================================
    firstly Stephen saw a vision of Christ in the heavens, seated at the right hand of God, this event did not constitute a prayer,
    =========================================


    I don't think that it matters that he saw a vision. Where is a law saying "Thou Shalt Not Pray While Seeing a Vision?"


    =================================
    yes he spoke directly with the Christ, but this does not mean it was a prayer,
    ===================================


    Speaking directly with the Father or with God is not prayer then ?

    I don't think it matters that Stephen was speaking directly with Jesus. In fact I think it is quite good that he did so.

    ======================================
    for to do so would also mean that when Adam and Eve spoke with God in a similar and direct fashion, it was a prayerful act, thus your reasoning is entirely erroneous my friend, entirely.
    =======================================


    I don't think anything in early Genesis mandates that it is wrong to direct our prayers to the Lord Jesus.

    To ask in His name, as He instructed, is not as superficial as to simply tack on to the end of your prayer "in the name of Jesus". To ask in His name means to ask in the realm of His Person, in His presence, His name is Himself.

    Please do not be too superfical as to think asking in the name of Jesus merely means finishing your prayer with "in the name of Jesus". It should mean that in your heart you are one with Jesus, before the face of Jesus, in the realm and sphere of Jesus. And it DOES NOT make praying TO Jesus wrong.

    Stephen, in asking Jesus to forgive his murderers was asking in the name of Jesus because he was in fellowhip with Jesus. And his asking Jesus was his asking God.

    (John 15:16) - "... whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give you."

    Now if this teaching was merely a promise that tacking onto the end of every prayer "in the name of Jesus" would cause us to receive our request, then a lot of immature Christians would have all kinds of things. That is mosly material things like cars, a better job, a nicer house, a big raise at their job, etc. etc. etc. They could say "But I asked in the name of Jesus and I didn't get a new Mercedes or a big promotion at work. What is wrong?"

    Asking in the name of Jesus is not that superficial. First of all it means that you are asking according to the will of Jesus - the will of God. You are asking in harmony with His Person and His purpose.

    I think your view of asking the Father in the name of Jesus the Son should be uplifted.

    =========================================
    for example the apostle John also received a vision of the Christ as you are very well aware, revelation 1:17 to 19, but was this a prayer, hardly could it be the case, for it was simply a vision, as in the case of Stephen, thus you must bear in mind my friend that simply speaking to God does not in itself constitute a prayer!
    ======================================


    Prayer is first and foremost an excersize of the spirit of man - the deepest part of man's being. We must worship the God in spirit and in reality. That means our asking, praying, talking to Christ, talking to the Father, our singing, our reading, indeed our daily living - should be with the excersize of the deepest part of our being. We are not simply to talk from the throat. We are to open up our whole heart and whole being until the deepest part of us touches the Holy Spirit.

    " ... out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water".

    Stephen and John's speaking to God were from their deepest spiritual kernel . John said that he was "in spirit" four times in the book of Revelation. He was not in the mind. He was in touch with his deepest part within his being.

    Prayer to Jesus is something I would give my life for by His mercy. You would have to kill me to forbid me from praying to Jesus.

    ==============================
    therefore it would be incorrect to cite Stephens or Johns talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him, no, siree!
    ====================================


    This prohibition on praying or speaking to Jesus - was it not precisely WHY the mob was stoning Stephen ? It seems to me Robbie, that in this you are more aligned with Stephen's persecutors that with Stephen. Is this not a shame to you?

    "Lord [Jesus] do not hold this sin against them." (Acts 7:60)

    They held their ears and grinded their teeth and attacked Stephen with stones. They just couldn't STAND to hear Stephen speak of and TO Jesus in this way.

    How are you not different from them in their outrage?



    ==============================
    the whole fallacious argument of Christians who pray to Christ fails because of their inability to correctly and accurately distinguish the actual being of the Christ, prehuman, yes, creation, yes, with a beginning, yes, always existed, no, son of God yes, exalted, undoubtedly, King yes! God almighty, no way!
    ===============================


    The Word that was with God (John 1:1) WAS GOD (John 1:1). And "THE WORD BECAME FLESH" (John 1:14)


    Flesh IS and item of Creation. True. But the WORD Who was with God and WAS GOD is not an item of creation. For as long as God was the WORD was and WAS GOD.

    Besides this I do not think you have made a convincing case that Stephen did not pray to Jesus in spite of the circumstances. And certainly Paul requested something of Jesus in prayer three times WITHOUT and accompanying vision.

    You should not make this a legal matter. Praying to the Father is wonderful. Praying to Jesus is also wonderful, effective, enjoyable and sweet. There is nothing wrong with praying to the Lord Jesus.

    I would encourage any human being to do so.

    ===============================
    once you come to appreciate this Jaywill, then all other things become crystal clear, no mysticism, no mingling of man and God, but the son of God and King of Gods Kingdom, and the greatest teacher ever to have trodden the earth.
    ===================================


    No, Jesus is the mingling of God and man. And the old Arian teaching that the Deity of Jesus is incomplete was rightly rejected by the ancient brothers a long time ago. Athanasius and other ancient Christian brothers were correct to declare that Arius heresy and attack against the Triune God should be pronounced heretical.

    Today certain groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and The Way International have recycled this old heresy. You have been caught up in it. From what quarter I do not know.

    By the way - the word "MINGLE" is scriptural from the typology of Levititcus and the meal offering. And many good expositors say that the mingling of the fine flour and the oil was symbolic of the mingling of God and man in the real offering of Jesus Christ.

    Now explain to me why the blood of Jesus is so effectual to remove the sins of the sinner for eternity. Is it because Jesus was some kind of created angel ?

    He had to be a MAN in order to DIE. He had to be GOD in order for His death to have such eternal and effectual significance.
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    15 May '09 17:321 edit
    Correcting my typo I meant to write this:

    " This prohibition on praying or speaking to Jesus - was it not precisely WHY the mob was stoning Stephen ? It seems to me Robbie, that in this you are more aligned with Stephen's persecutors than with Stephen. Is this not a shame to you? "
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    15 May '09 18:331 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Correcting my typo I meant to write this:

    [b]" This prohibition on praying or speaking to Jesus - was it not precisely WHY the mob was stoning Stephen ? It seems to me Robbie, that in this you are more aligned with Stephen's persecutors than with Stephen. Is this not a shame to you? "
    [/b]
    wooooahhh, i ask the members of the forum to witness this unbelievable statement,

    talk of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel! shame on you Jaywill, for i have consistently defended the faith to the best of my knowledge and understanding! there is simply no indication that the references you gave pointed to prayers or anything of the sort, further if you note, Stephen saw two individuals, God and at the right hand of God, Christ! was it double vision, was his contact lenses lost in the melee? no for they are two distinct individuals, one wonders where the 'person???', of the Holy spirit was, out to lunch? or why christ, the God-man????', had suddenly split into two?

    further, Paul in the book of Hebrews gives us further insight into this heavenly arrangement, for throughout the book, Paul gives emphasize to Christ relationship, you will note.

    'Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a public servant of the holy place'. Hebrews 8:1

    you will notice the reference, servant, public servant, in the house of that one, that one being God almighty! also the numerous references to the term son throughout the chapter.

    As i stated, until you get a clear understanding of the relationship between Christ and the Father, you will remain a victim of dogma and ill conceived perceptions, but i respect you never the less πŸ™‚
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    15 May '09 19:033 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    wooooahhh, i ask the members of the forum to witness this unbelievable statement,

    talk of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel! shame on you Jaywill, for i have consistently defended the faith to the best of my knowledge and understanding! there is simply no indication that the references you gave pointed to prayers or anything of main a victim of dogma and ill conceived perceptions, but i respect you never the less πŸ™‚
    .)
    ======================

    talk of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel! shame on you Jaywill, for i have consistently defended the faith to the best of my knowledge and understanding! there is simply no indication that the references you gave pointed to prayers or anything of the sort, further if you note, Stephen saw two individuals, God and at the right hand of God, Christ! was it double vision, was his contact lenses lost in the melee? no for they are two distinct individuals, one wonders where the 'person???', of the Holy spirit was, out to lunch? or why christ, the God-man????', had suddenly split into two?

    further, Paul in the book of Hebrews gives us further insight into this heavenly arrangement, for throughout the book, Paul gives emphasize to Christ relationship, you will note.

    'Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a public servant of the holy place'. Hebrews 8:1

    you will notice the reference, servant, public servant, in the house of that one, that one being God almighty! also the numerous references to the term son throughout the chapter.

    As i stated, until you get a clear understanding of the relationship between Christ and the Father, you will remain a victim of dogma and ill conceived perceptions, but i respect you never the less
    ========================================


    Well allow me to respond.

    It was the exaltation of Jesus which caused Stephen to be stoned. You might say that they desired to stone him before he called on the Lord Jesus. That may be true and my comparison may have been a little loose.

    However, calling on the Lord is a kind of praying to the Lord. And Paul was rounding up the CALLERS. He had letters to bring to Jerusalem bound all those WHO CALLED on THIS Name. And this name was JESUS.

    So it is not that far off. The ones who were HEARD, Robbie, CALLING on the name of Jesus were the ones who were being persecuted.

    "But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man [Saul], how many evil things he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.

    And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who CALL UPON YOUR NAME." (Acts 9:13,14 my emphasis).


    So, Saul, the young man who stood holding the garments of those killng Stephan, was arresting those who called on the name of Jesus just as Stephen had done.

    They called in thier praying to Jesus. And Saul wanted to bind them. Do you also want to bind those who pray to Jesus Robbie?

    Now the matter of Jesus and the Father being distinct. I never said they were not distinct. They are not separated.

    Distinct but not separate. To say "Well Jesus cannot be God because Jesus is the Great High Priest in Hebrews" is not wise at all. In the same book He is God, the Son. He is God in Hebrews chapter one.

    SO the bottom line is that Jesus is NOT NOT God because He IS the Great High Priest in Hebrews.

    And He is not not GOD because HE was Sent by the Father, or Obeys the Father, or Prays to the Father, or Interceds for the believers to the Father. He is not NOT God because of these things when the ENTIRE revelation of the Bible is carefully studied.

    You make a dichotomy which is not biblical - "Because Jesus is the High Priest to God therefore HE is not God."

    This is false. In Hebrews the SON is addressed as "OH GOD".

    This is why some of us repeat that Jesus Christ is the MINGLING of God and Man. To MINGLE two or more things is to combine them so that the components remain distinguishable in the combination.


    So we are not willing to be pushed to one extreme or the other. We are not willing to say:

    1. ) Oh, because Jesus is God then He CANNOT be a man.

    OR

    2.) Because He is a man He CANNOT Be God.

    We say that the truest way to understand what the Bible reveals is to see that in Jesus Christ God and man are united, mingled, in an organic blending.

    Human language may, in fact, be a problem to utter such a profound matter. But the truth of is there in the Scriptures and we refuse to abandon one side of the truth to embrace the other.

    So Jesus the High Priest is still the Word who was God in eternity become flesh.

    He is not NOT GOD because He is the Great High Priest interceding for His people to the Father. The two are distinct. The two are not separate.
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