31 May 09
1 edit
Originally posted by chappy1I believe God the Father said this about Jesus Christ:
Robbie Carrobie- I want to know how you can call yourself a Christian and not believe that Jesus Christ was God.
Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?
"This is my Son with whom I am well pleased.[/i][/b]"
So... I guess God was pleased with Himself? hmmmm....
31 May 09
1 edit
It is perfectly viable for someone to call themselves Christian and yet believe Jesus is Son of God and deity, but, not God the Father.
I am disturbed someone would suggest that a bible-believing person who believes that, is not Christian.
If it makes it easier for triune-God believing Christians, just figure that Robbie Carombie, me, and other Christians like us, are just not capable of understanding your belief system.
On that note, I wonder how many Christians, if really pressed, could satisfactorily explain the triune God concept.
There are only a few verses that lend toward the concept, i.e "I and the Father are one," but when compared to the myriad of verses that go the other way, I don't see much that's worthy of debate.
As far as what someone else said, using this verse in defense of the triune God, "Before Abraham was, I AM." ... to me it never meant Jesus was saying He was God, only that Jesus was saying He was around during that event... probably witnessed it. No biggie. They picked up stones to stone Jesus because He suggested He is a deity, not God.. in my opinion.
31 May 09
Originally posted by sumydidthankyou my friend, you should check out the Sahidic Coptic text on the verse in question, John 8, and John chapter 1 verse 1, its very very interesting.
It is perfectly viable for someone to call themselves Christian and yet believe Jesus is Son of God and deity, but, not God the Father.
I am disturbed someone would suggest that a bible-believing person who believes that, is not Christian.
If it makes it easier for triune-God believing Christians, just figure that Robbie Carombie, me, and other ...[text shortened]... cked up stones to stone Jesus because He suggested He is a deity, not God.. in my opinion.
31 May 09
4 edits
Originally posted by jaywillI generally use any translation which i feel accurately renders the essence of the scripture to what my learning has led me to understand is the case, and often visit the site Biblegateway.com, which has over a hundred different translations, also on my pc there is a piece of software called esword, which is a verse by verse account of the bible, king James version with Greek text, also my wife has a piece of software which i readily use, which uses the new world translation, also i have a personal library of over forty different bible translations, not to mention Greek and Hebrew interlinear, expository (Vines, who as you may be aware was a trinitarian) and one or two lexicons and concordance (Strongs), also one diaglott, written by a christidelphian i believe.
[b]===============================
there is no discussion in Mr. Hislops book with regard to the pagan origin of the trinity, nor can i check it for you, for i have given my copy to a friend, i think, for i cannot find it at present.
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I don't have my copy around either. But I do not remember the Trinity b 901 American Standard Bible published by the Watchtower Society. I really like the 1901 ASV.[/b]
31 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHey Rob I'll definitely check that out asap. Never heard of "Sahidic Coptic text." Sounds interesting!!
thankyou my friend, you should check out the Sahidic Coptic text on the verse in question, John 8, and John chapter 1 verse 1, its very very interesting.
God bless you, bro
31 May 09
Originally posted by sumydidActually not even that verse lends itself to the concept of a triune (whatever that means) God. Christ use that expression on other occasions :
....There are only a few verses that lend toward the concept, i.e "I and the Father are one,"
JOH 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we ARE ONE:
Are we also to conclude that God, Christ and all the disciples are ONE person / ONE God as well? So that makes 14 beings rolled up into one God ? The whole idea of a Christ being God and viceversa is unscriptural.
As for who is a Christian. My definition is someone who follows the teachings of Christ. Angels, disciples, apostles all refered to Christ as the Son of God. Any departure from that is following after the teachings of man, not Christ.
31 May 09
Originally posted by Rajk999was jesus not a man?
Actually not even that verse lends itself to the concept of a triune (whatever that means) God. Christ use that expression on other occasions :
JOH 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have giv ...[text shortened]... as the Son of God. Any departure from that is following after the teachings of man, not Christ.
31 May 09
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=====================================
I generally use any translation which i feel accurately renders the essence of the scripture to what my learning has led me to understand is the case, and often visit the site Biblegateway.com, which has over a hundred different translations, also on my pc there is a piece of software called esword, which is a verse by verse account of the bible, kin ...[text shortened]... o lexicons and concordance (Strongs), also one diaglott, written by a christidelphian i believe.
I generally use any translation which i feel accurately renders the essence of the scripture to what my learning has led me to understand is the case, and often visit the site Biblegateway.com, which has over a hundred different translations, also on my pc there is a piece of software called esword, which is a verse by verse account of the bible, king James version with Greek text, also my wife has a piece of software which i readily use, which uses the new world translation,
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Which English translation did you quote in which you read "torture" in place of "cross" ? (No I am not in love with crosses and do not have one or a picture of one as far as I know).
I hope you are not evading the question or trying to distance yourself from the New World Translation.
You did not answer me specifically but only on general terms vague enough to neutralize suscipicion (or so you seem to think),
that Mr. Russell the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses is very influential on your beliefs.
The New World Trnslation you put in small letters perhaps to posture the matter in an innocuous generality.
And it is your wife who coincidently uses it, but not you ?
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also i have a personal library of over forty different bible translations, not to mention Greek and Hebrew interlinear, expository (Vines, who as you may be aware was a trinitarian) and one or two lexicons and concordance (Strongs), also one diaglott, written by a christidelphian i believe.
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Okay Robbie. But I was neither born yesterday or became a Bible student recently. When I see you substitute cross with "torture" in a quotation of First Corinthians, it seems to be a sign of the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses at work.
I have studied some of their liturature and not simply others books about them. This was done over 35 years ago. I have had many conversations with them over the course of three decades.
At any rate my God is the man Jesus Christ. And He said "You shall be MY witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
So I am a witness for the MAN Jesus Christ who is my God. And I have shown you in the past that Jehovah is the Mighty God as well as the Almighty God and that Jesus is Jehovah incarnated.
But there is a deference between proof and persuasion. You've been given the proof in the past that Jesus is God and man. You just are not persuaded.
Okay. Its not the first time for me in talking to a student of Russell or Arius. In saying this I do not say that you are saying "I AM OF Arius" or you are denominating by saying "I AM OF RUSSELL". But I do not fail to notice the net effect.
31 May 09
4 edits
Originally posted by sumydid=======================================
It is perfectly viable for someone to call themselves Christian and yet believe Jesus is Son of God and deity, but, not God the Father.
I am disturbed someone would suggest that a bible-believing person who believes that, is not Christian.
If it makes it easier for triune-God believing Christians, just figure that Robbie Carombie, me, and other cked up stones to stone Jesus because He suggested He is a deity, not God.. in my opinion.
It is perfectly viable for someone to call themselves Christian and yet believe Jesus is Son of God and deity, but, not God the Father.
======================================
Maybe so. Then again one can call themselves a Christian simply because they believe in The Golden Rule and tries to live a moral life with not particular belief in a Son of God.
I lived next to a teacher at Princeton Theological Seminary who discribed himself as a Christian Atheist - Prof. Brauer (spelling?), was his name. (Raymond, may have been the first name). This was around 1970 or so.
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I am disturbed someone would suggest that a bible-believing person who believes that, is not Christian.
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What I wrote was that Robbie seemed not my Christian brother or acting as one who denied that Jesus is God.
I made it personal rather than universal to all nominal "Christians" -- "my Christian brother". And it was not beause I don't love him. It is because I want him to be clear about the "brotherhood" that I consider the "brothers in Christ" to belong to.
If I am wrong, I will bear there responsibility before God. I am willing to. For I react to his proclaimation that there is another inferior God named 'the Word" who is the created God - Jesus. I think that is not according to the truth of the New Testament.
Note - I did not say that Jesus as a man is not a creature.
I will bear the responsibility before God for informing him of what I think Robbie's error is. My God is the man Jesus Christ the Son of God, period.
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If it makes it easier for triune-God believing Christians, just figure that Robbie Carombie, me, and other Christians like us, are just not capable of understanding your belief system.
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Your tone is respectful. I think we could converse on the subject up to a point. What concerns me is not exhuastive understanding of "the system" but experience and adherance to what is written there in the Bible.
You would have to work pretty hard to change many biblical statements which either you have not experienced or you don't want to believe.
I think it is not that I believe something extra. It is that you do not believe enough. The man Jesus is taught to be also God in the Bible.
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On that note, I wonder how many Christians, if really pressed, could satisfactorily explain the triune God concept.
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I can answer that easily. No one can "satisfactorily explain" such a mysterious matter of the Three - One God. No one can satisfactorily explain the Triune God, especially to someone who trusts in their natural reasoning rather than in God's revelation.
That does not mean that we cannot simply say "Amen" to what the Bible SAYS and go on to enjoy God in Christ as our spiritual life.
01 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillwhether you were born yesterday or came up the river Clyde in a training shoe is neither here nor there Jaywill, the fact of the matter remains, which i notice you have taken great lengths to ignore, although i myself have until now, not pressed you on the matter, is to explain the pagan origins of the trinity. whether i choose to quote russel, arius, the new world translation, the sahidic coptic text, the writings of plato, is in itself also neither here nor there and proves nothing, but what it does do, as in the fabric of a carpet, weaves a pattern that, when taken as a whole is wholly conducive in providing a correct evaluation of the nature of this doctrine, which we can now state, without the shadow of a doubt, is pre christian in origin and polytheistic in nature. but even more than that, it is unscriptural and blasphemous! yes i have said it, blasphemous! it cannot be found within the teachings of the Christ, was unheard of to the Jews, my goodness even Muslims recognize this fact.
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I generally use any translation which i feel accurately renders the essence of the scripture to what my learning has led me to understand is the case, and often visit the site Biblegateway.com, which has over a hundred different translations, also on my pc there is a piece of software called esword, which is a by saying "I AM OF RUSSELL". But I do not fail to notice the net effect.[/b]
Christ was the greatest teacher and human being to have walked the earth, but he was never, nor ever claimed to be on a par with Almighty God, never! you people . by accepting a doctrine, which runs totally contrary to the reveled word of God, in that god would never ask us to try to understand something that was in your own words, 'a mystery', for he is neither as cruel nor illogical to foment such an incongruity, for it clearly states , in scripture that he wants us to take in accurate knowledge of his will and purposes.
You believe what you want Jaywill, but i will continue to assert, until a refutation is provided, that the trinity doctrine is pre christian in origin, polytheistic in nature and cannot be substantiated in scripture, and i will use whatever source is necessary to establish this evident truth.
i thought of listing my collection of bible translations, which you appeared to deny, but it would be as futile as trying to explain to you the origins of the trinity, for even if a hand appeared on the wall and spelled it out in plain english, or an angel from heaven descended and expressly spelt it out to you, i do not think you would believe them.
01 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, you old heretic... 🙂
whether you were born yesterday or came up the river Clyde in a training shoe is neither here nor there Jaywill, the fact of the matter remains, which i notice you have taken great lengths to ignore, although i myself have until now, not pressed you on the matter, is to explain the pagan origins of the trinity. whether i choose to quote russel, ariu ...[text shortened]... rom heaven descended and expressly spelt it out to you, i do not think you would believe them.
01 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999he would burn us all at the stake if he could 🙂, like Calvin did to Micheal Servetus when he printed his refutation of the trinity in the 1500s , but i plan on finding out where Jaywills church is and nailing my treatise to the church door, here is an excerpt
Robbie, you old heretic... 🙂
As he grew older, and more informed, the young Servetus was appalled by the shedding of so much blood. There was a large settlement of Muslims and Jews in the country, and they were spared the sword only if they publicly confessed their faith to be that of the Roman Catholics and affirmed the formula of the Trinity. Imagine his excitement when, upon examining the Bible more closely , he found that the doctrine of Trinity was nowhere a part of its teaching. He further discovered that the Bible did not always support what was being taught by the Church. He was only twenty years old when he decided to tell the world the truth as he had found it, for it followed from this discovery that if the Christians accepted that there was only One God, then all cause for strife between the Christian and the Muslims would be ended, and both communities cold live together in peace. This sensitive but inexperienced youth, his imagination fired with enthusiasm, felt that this end would most easily be achieved with the help of the leaders of the Reformation ,who had , after all ,already broken away from the Catholic Church. The new Protestant Churches would become Unitarian, and with their help the Christians , the Muslims , the Jews would be able to live together in peace. A world of toleration would become a possibility based on One God. the "Father" of the family of mankind......
Gruesome Death
On the 26 th of October ,1553, Servetus was fastened to the trunk of a tree fixed in the earth , his feet just touching the ground. A crown of straw and leaves sprinkled over with brimstone was places on his head. Bundles of wood intermingled with green oaken faggots still in leaf were piled around his legs. His body was then bounded to the stake with an iron chain and a course twisted rope thrown around his neck. The wood was then lit. The fire tormented him, but did not burn him severely. Seeing, this, a few onlookers felt compassion for him and added more fuel in order to end his misery. According to one eye-witness , Servetus was writhing for about two hours before he died. A copy of the The Errors of Trinity had been tied to his waist before the wood was lit . It is said that the book was rescued by someone, and that the half-burnt book still exists. Celsus relates that the constancy of Servetus in the midst of the fire induced many to go over to his beliefs. Calvin made it an express subject of complaint that there were so many people who cherished and revered his memory. As Castillo, a follower of Servetus , said: "To burn a man is not to prove a doctrine" (Change of Liberal Faith, G. N. Marshall) . In later years ,the people of Geneva were to remember him by erecting a statue, not to Calvin , but to the man he was responsible for burning alive.
thus Jaywill may do to us what his 'brother', Calvin did in a literal sense!
http://thechristianity.tripod.com/Followers/servetus.html
01 Jun 09
5 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie================================
whether you were born yesterday or came up the river Clyde in a training shoe is neither here nor there Jaywill, the fact of the matter remains, which i notice you have taken great lengths to ignore, although i myself have until now, not pressed you on the matter, is to explain the pagan origins of the trinity. whether i choose to quote russel, ariu rom heaven descended and expressly spelt it out to you, i do not think you would believe them.
when taken as a whole is wholly conducive in providing a correct evaluation of the nature of this doctrine, which we can now state, without the shadow of a doubt, is pre christian in origin and polytheistic in nature.
================================
Robbie, you are the one teaching polytheism.
You have God Almighty and a created other god, a lesser one, the Word. This is your interpretation of John 1:1.
I have not seen you extracate your doctrine from a polytheistic interpretation of John 1:1. How many God/gods are spoken of in John 1:1, one or more than one ???
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but even more than that, it is unscriptural and blasphemous! yes i have said it, blasphemous! it cannot be found within the teachings of the Christ, was unheard of to the Jews, my goodness even Muslims recognize this fact.
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That Christ was God incarnate was unheard of to the Jews who crucified Him is not to prove that it was unheard of in their Scriptures. Jehovah the Mighty God is born a little child and a given son in Isaiah 9:6.
Your squirmings around Isaiah 9:6 are mighty. But you cannot twist away the obvious. I have already shown you in the past that The Mighty God = The Almighty God. And both are Jehovah.
In your treatment of Isaiah 9:6 polytheism is taught.
==============================
Christ was the greatest teacher and human being to have walked the earth, but he was never, nor ever claimed to be on a par with Almighty God, never!
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Being God incarnate as a man and that submissive to the Father, He did not glorify Himself. However, on occassion we do get a glimps of exactly what John wrote - "the Word (which was God and not a polytheistic lesser other god) became flesh" .
Here is a notable occasion readers, where we see Jesus teaching that He is Jehovah God the Almighty of the Old Testament:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, in the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! ... For I say to you, You shall by no means see Me from now on until you say, Blerssed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (See Matt. 23:37-39)
It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). For the man Jesus to have said "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings" was to indicate that He as God Himself incarnate.
The Word that was God became flesh (John 1:14)
As God incarnate as a man He could go on to say - "You shall by no means see Me ... until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
He is God yet He comes in the name of the Lord. It should not surprise us because of Isaiah 9:6. If the little born child is the Mighty God and the eternal Father is the given Son, then of course the Word Who is God becomes flesh and comes to Jerusalem "in the name of the Lord".
When this revelation was attacked by the spiritually blind the ancient brothers came up with a word to discribe the mysterious miracle - Triune God.
But let me ask Robbie this:
If the Word was another god besides God Almighty, which had to be created, then HOW did God Almighty create Him ? He needed His WORD to create Him and the Word was not yet created ?
The answer I would give is that John 1:1 teaches of only ONE God and not two polytheistically. AND as long as God was the WORD was also. That would be from eternity.
How would you, Robbie, explain that before the Word was, God spoke Him into existence since He had no Word ?
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you people . by accepting a doctrine, which runs totally contrary to the reveled word of God,
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That the Word was God and was with God, and that the Word became flesh "runs totally contrary to the revealed word of God"?
No Robbie, your polytheistic God and a created lesser god who became Jesus runs totally contrary to the revealed word of God.
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in that god would never ask us to try to understand something that was in your own words, 'a mystery',
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The understanding that God seeks is by our LIVING Christ. The epistle of First John proves this. It is by our experience of Christ as the indwelling divine life of God that we UNDERSTAND the Triune God.
Right here Robbie -
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
To be in Christ the Son Robbie, to be in the living realm of Him Who is true - in His Son, THIS is the true God and eternal life. In Him = in His Son = the true God = eternal life.
The Trinity is about God dispensing His life into man. Do you have only an objective God? Do you only have an objective object of worship "out there"? The New Testament teaches of the Triune God imparting Himself as eternal life into His people.
That we may know Him and be living in Him is the understanding of enjoyment and of experience.
Isn't it perculiar that along with not understanding the Triune God you also have no understanding of the meaning of being "born again"? Is God life to you or just an object of worship out there ?
The Trinity is the journey of God into man. The Father is the Source. The Son is the Course. And the Holy Spirit is the Flow. The Triune God is about God dispensing His life into those who receive Him inwardly.
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You believe what you want Jaywill, but i will continue to assert, until a refutation is provided, that the trinity doctrine is pre christian in origin, polytheistic in nature and cannot be substantiated in scripture, and i will use whatever source is necessary to establish this evident truth.
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You are too locked behind the bars of your religious concept of a purely objective God to see the revelation of the Triune God as divine life. The Moslems and the Jews of the Old Testament who opposed Christ had a purely objective God.
John had God as Him who is true as a realm to love in. John had His Son as a sphere to live in and enjoy subjectively. John understood -
" That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us); That which we have seen and heard we report to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (See 1 John 1:1-3)
This man was the life of the Father. This man is the life of God. How subjective to a person is his own life ?
The Trinity is about God dispensing His life into man. The Father is the Source. The Son is the Course. And the Holy Spirit is the Transmission into man of this life of God.
We must receive the Son of God as the life of God and live in Him. Then we have an understanding of Him who is true. Then we are in Him who is true - in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life. Everything else that replaces this is an idol. The Triune God is for our living in the sphere and realm of God as life. The Trinity is not so that man can have a confusing mental puzzling doctrine for its own sake.
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i thought of listing my collection of bible translations, which you appeared to deny, but it would be as futile
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I think all you needed to say was that you have many translations and that you took pieces of each of them and put them together into a quotation of Scripture.
I have no objection to you having many English translations as I do myself.
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as trying to explain to you the origins of the trinity, for even if a hand appeared on the wall and spelled it out in plain english, or an angel from heaven descended and expressly spelt it out to you, i do not think you would believe them.
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But in John 1:1 you are the polytheist. NOT ME.
I do not say there are three Gods. I say there is one God. That is one exceedingly Wonderful (that's Scriptural) God. Wonderful as in Isaiah 9:6.
That God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is "Wonderful" And He is experiencial and enjoyable. Praise Him.
01 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieActually, people like them would burn all 12 disciples as well. So we're in good company... 🙂
he would burn us all at the stake if he could 🙂, ..
In fact its that type ... the Pharisee type.. that would crucify Christ.
You think Christ would have a clue what Jaywill talking about ?
Jaywill is trying to tell Christ that He is GOD ? Christ would be shocked.
Christ will say
"... but Jay, I said I am the SON.
...GOD is the father .. understand ?"
01 Jun 09
5 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999================================
Actually, people like them would burn all 12 disciples as well. So we're in good company... 🙂
In fact its that type ... the Pharisee type.. that would crucify Christ.
You think Christ would have a clue what Jaywill talking about ?
Jaywill is trying to tell Christ that He is GOD ? Christ would be shocked.
Christ will say
"... but Jay, I said I am the SON.
...GOD is the father .. understand ?"
You think Christ would have a clue what Jaywill talking about ?
Jaywill is trying to tell Christ that He is GOD ? Christ would be shocked.
Christ will say
"... but Jay, I said I am the SON.
...GOD is the father .. understand ?"
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I told Robbie. And now I tell you. The Triune God is the God dispensing His life into man. What God is in the Bible cannot be separated from what God is doing in the Bible.
He is imparting Himself into man to be the eternal life of man. The Father is the Source. The Son is the Course. And the Spirit is the Flow from the Source, through the Course, into man as the transmission.
Such a thought is conveyed in the words of Jesus Himself. Sure they are. In speaking about the Holy Spirit Who is to come into the disciples, Jesus says this:
"He [the Spirit] will gloirify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you.
All that the Father has is Mine; for this [reason] I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:14,15)
All that the Father has is embodied in Christ. And the Holy Spirit will convey all these riches into the disciples. The Spirit is the Transmission of the riches embodied in the Son which have their source in the Father.
So I said to you that the Triune God is about the dispensing of divine life into His people. The Father is the source. The Son is the expression. And the Spirit is the transmission.
Now you alluded that Jesus would rebuke me for calling Him my God. I accept any rebuke from my Lord Jesus which He intends to deliver. However, He did not rebuke Thomas when that disciple called the resurrected Jesus his God.
"Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:27-29)
I do not see Jesus trying to correct Thomas. And I am one of those who have not seen yet have the blessedness of believing. And Jesus is also "my Lord AND MY GOD."