who knows?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm curious as to how you might be so privy to the subjective experience of theists first of all.

I'm not privy to their experiences, I'm merely stating that they are subjective, are you denying that each Christian has a totally different experience of god?

Secondly what you are saying is not true . Many Christians share very similar experiences of the intimacy and faithfulness of God's love for example.

That's immaterial, if they differ in their experience it is enough to show that the differences exist and so no one has a claim to a true and absolute god.

What you are saying is just a truism. Our experiences of nature are very sublime and individual and we all find different aspects of nature appealing but one would not say that nature is not a unified whole or that nature does not exist because of this.

Nature is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of empricial presence, we can all measure and agree on the measurements of what we find in the natural world, it is an objective world.

Individual perspectives and experiences do not prove a fragmented reality , it just shows we can all experience things in different ways uniquely.

I'm not attempting to prove a fragmented reality, where did you get that from?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Is it safe for me to assume that the rubbish you refer to is what the atheist are saying about God? JOSEPHW

Fairly safe to assume yes , although I have heard some misrepresentations in churches too.

Rubbish, the atheist standpoint is not one that KM either put forth correctly or, it appears, even understand.

Originally posted by knightmeister
On the contrary , it's perfectly possible to tell you what God is like but you may or may not accept it.

It is not a question of accepting or not accepting. If you tell me you believe that God is a particular way I will believe you. That does not mean I believe that God is a particular way but only that I believe that you believe it.

I could tell you he is not this preposterous , wrathful god who delights in sending people to hell and doesn't want us to think for ourselves for example , but you would probably prefer your strawman god because he's easier to disbelieve.
I do not make 'strawmen' gods. I merely talk about what I hear from Christians, (which sometimes does include descriptions of wrathfulness). If you have a different concept of God then that is fine but you can hardly say that because your concept differs from another Christians then my denial that the God as defined by the other Christian can exist is a strawman.
If on the other hand it was you that failed to communicate properly what you meant by God then it is up to you to simply correct the impression that we have mistakenly got, rather than simply shouting "strawman".
I can hardly make statements that inherently cover all possible concepts of God as such concepts are so varied. I do sometimes make statements about specific concepts and where possible try to qualify those statements and if your concept differers from them then you are not included and shouldn't worry.
Your complaint is equivalent to somebody saying "Christ never rose from the dead" and a muslim standing up and saying "Thats a stawman, I don't believe Christ rose from the dead".

Originally posted by Starrman
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]I'm curious as to how you might be so privy to the subjective experience of theists first of all.

I'm not privy to their experiences, I'm merely stating that they are subjective, are you denying that each Christian has a totally different experience of god?

Secondly what you are saying is not true . ...[text shortened]... ely.

I'm not attempting to prove a fragmented reality, where did you get that from?[/b]

are you denying that each Christian has a totally different experience of god? STARRMAN

Yes , I am denying this. It's the word "totally" that I think is inaccurate.

Originally posted by Starrman
Rubbish, the atheist standpoint is not one that KM either put forth correctly or, it appears, even understand.

But the atheist viewpoint is essentially not a viewpoint but a reaction against another viewpoint. Atheism is a position which defines itself by what it does not believe. Therefore if an Atheist puts forward a certain viewpoint of God that they don't believe in then in order for it to be a valid objection then the God that isn't believed in must be the same God that is believed in.

So if you say "I don't believe in God because what kind of God would see his creations as sinful , disgusting and worthy of hell" then my reply would be "I don't believe in that God either"

Many Atheist objections that I come across are based on a god that I don't believe in anyway , but the perception is that that is what I MUST believe.

" The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in" CS LEWIS

Originally posted by twhitehead
It is not a question of accepting or not accepting. If you tell me you believe that God is a particular way I will believe you. That does not mean I believe that God is a particular way but only that I believe that you believe it.

[b]I could tell you he is not this preposterous , wrathful god who delights in sending people to hell and doesn't want us t standing up and saying "Thats a stawman, I don't believe Christ rose from the dead".

It is not a question of accepting or not accepting. If you tell me you believe that God is a particular way I will believe you. That does not mean I believe that God is a particular way but only that I believe that you believe it. WHITEY

Yes , I see what you are saying , but in order to disbelieve a proposition then one must first have an idea of what it is you are disbelieving. Much of what passes for serious atheism is just a fixed firm position based on a particular image of God which to me is inaccurate anyway.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It is not a question of accepting or not accepting. If you tell me you believe that God is a particular way I will believe you. That does not mean I believe that God is a particular way but only that I believe that you believe it.

[b]I could tell you he is not this preposterous , wrathful god who delights in sending people to hell and doesn't want us t ...[text shortened]... standing up and saying "Thats a stawman, I don't believe Christ rose from the dead".

I do not make 'strawmen' gods. I merely talk about what I hear from Christians, (which sometimes does include descriptions of wrathfulness). If you have a different concept of God then that is fine but you can hardly say that because your concept differs from another Christians then my denial that the God as defined by the other Christian can exist is a strawman.
If on the other hand it was you that failed to communicate properly what you meant by God then it is up to you to simply correct the impression that we have mistakenly got, rather than simply shouting "strawman". WHITEY

To be fair to you whitey I do not think you are nearly as guilty of this as some others are. Christians come up with false ideas about God as well just as in science there are also abberations of the truth.

What you do see on these forums quite often is ideas about God being bandied about and some Christians trying to correct these myths. The problem is that many atheists seem to want to stick firmly by their strawman because it's more emotionally satisfying.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But the atheist viewpoint is essentially not a viewpoint but a reaction against another viewpoint. Atheism is a position which defines itself by what it does not believe. Therefore if an Atheist puts forward a certain viewpoint of God that they don't believe in then in order for it to be a valid objection then the God that isn't believed in must be the ...[text shortened]... ST believe.

" The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in" CS LEWIS

Atheists don't believe in ANY Gods, so your post is nonsensical.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But the atheist viewpoint is essentially not a viewpoint but a reaction against another viewpoint. Atheism is a position which defines itself by what it does not believe. Therefore if an Atheist puts forward a certain viewpoint of God that they don't believe in then in order for it to be a valid objection then the God that isn't believed in must be the ...[text shortened]... ST believe.

" The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in" CS LEWIS

I'm sorry but... what?

Atheist = denial of god, gods, any form of supernatural creator, deity, all powerful being etc.

No atheist position is based on any particular facet of god, but solely on the non-existence of such a concept as god, single, plural, pink with flipper feet, whatever you like. You have a major block about atheism and what it logically entails.

Originally posted by Starrman
I'm sorry but... what?

Atheist = denial of god, gods, any form of supernatural creator, deity, all powerful being etc.

No atheist position is based on any particular facet of god, but solely on the non-existence of such a concept as god, single, plural, pink with flipper feet, whatever you like. You have a major block about atheism and what it logically entails.

You have a major block about atheism and what it logically entails.STARRMAN

I do know exactly what atheism entails and that it does mean the rejection of any kind of God . What interests me is that often the portrayal of the God that is being rejected is actually described in some detail and then ridiculed for having particular qualities....qualities that are quite alien to many theists ways of looking at God. Are you so naive as to assume that atheists merely have some generic God that they reject?...in my experience it is often quite specific. Atheists often seem to know quite a lot about the God they don't believe in.You only have to read a few threads to figure that out!

Originally posted by knightmeister
You have a major block about atheism and what it logically entails.STARRMAN

I do know exactly what atheism entails and that it does mean the rejection of any kind of God . What interests me is that often the portrayal of the God that is being rejected is actually described in some detail and then ridiculed for having particular qualities....qualitie ...[text shortened]... lot about the God they don't believe in.You only have to read a few threads to figure that out!

Pick any person's definition of a god and the majority of theists will find it to be quite alien, some discussions are pitched at theists that take some holy book word for word, others are pitched at lets say...more learned theists who assemble and hybridise their own notion of a god. To argue against a theist you have to ahem...find the level. What *you* may see as fighting strawmen may well be to someone else blasphemy and vica versa

As others have stated, to an atheist the existence of any magic friend is ridiculous!

Originally posted by knightmeister
You have a major block about atheism and what it logically entails.STARRMAN

I do know exactly what atheism entails and that it does mean the rejection of any kind of God . What interests me is that often the portrayal of the God that is being rejected is actually described in some detail and then ridiculed for having particular qualities....qualitie ...[text shortened]... lot about the God they don't believe in.You only have to read a few threads to figure that out!

That only proves my point that you really don't understand the concept of atheism. Give me any god, with any qualities and I will offer you nothing in the way of belief. It is not the qualities of a god that are of issue, it is the concept of god, full stop. If atheists know a lot about god it is because the majority of them (in my experience) are intelligent enough to investigate that which they deny, just assuming a position on the grounds of faith would be, well, what a theist might do. In my experience the christian god is the most available and accessible for investigation, debate etc. but my denial of god is not a specific condition of that particular deity and I'd go so far as to say that my standpoint is logically consistent with all conceivable conceptions of god.

Originally posted by knightmeister
In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth. I always get the impression that Atheists ...[text shortened]... another life will never be the same again. God is not provable but he can be known.

What a load of pretentious, self serving rubbish this is.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What a load of pretentious, self serving rubbish this is.

Thanks Scotty ! I thought for a moment I had missed the bullseye but now I know I am on to something. If you didn't feel at all threatened by what I was saying you would not have felt the need to squash it and ridicule it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Thanks Scotty ! I thought for a moment I had missed the bullseye but now I know I am on to something. If you didn't feel at all threatened by what I was saying you would not have felt the need to squash it and ridicule it.

Yeah, of course, that's it! It couldn't possibly be that he's telling it like it is, that would be just crazy!