In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth. I always get the impression that Atheists just don't know who God is.
What this means is that 99% of the time an Atheist is arguing from a position of not knowing. To move from Atheism to Theism is not a process of realising that everything one once believed was nonsense is now true , it is much more a case of getting to know a different God that challenges one's preconceptions. The strawman gets burnt and the real God emerges.
Another way of looking at this is this. I have never personally met anyone who has said to me " Look , I have known God's love and healing power in my life , I have experienced his spirit guiding my life up to the point where I needed to choose him. I have asked him with all my heart to make himself known to me and really sought him and given him a chance. I have known the intimacy of his Holy Spirit in my life and felt his presence with me. I have gone through the process of finding out more about what he is really like ...but now I have seen through the whole thing as nonsense...and I am an Atheist again"
My guess is this kind of thing just doesn't happen to someone who genuinely seeks God earnestly. My hunch is that the real dividing line is not between belief and disbelief but between knowing and unknowing.
Once you seek God properly you've had it . He will 'wreck' your life. One way or another life will never be the same again. God is not provable but he can be known.
Originally posted by knightmeister In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth.
The fact that most Christians I have talked to don't seem to agree on what God is supposed to be like and their apparent inability to communicate very much about it to me doesn't help much.
Even you seem to be saying "I cant tell you what God is like I can only show you via a self brainwashing process".
Surely if any of the effects of God that you refer to are genuine then it would be possible for you to partially communicate to others what those effects are without them also directly experiencing them?
I always get the impression that Atheists just don't know who God is. I have to agree with that statement because as an atheist God is merely a concept in other peoples minds and therefore relative. I cannot possibly know what each and every individuals concept of God is.
you cant go up to somebody and say "who is God?" something i have learned, is that when you want an answer to a question you will never get what you are looking for by asking it. you have to find the answer for yourself
Originally posted by knightmeister In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth. I always get the impression that Atheists ...[text shortened]... another life will never be the same again. God is not provable but he can be known.
All that post suggests to me is that there is a logical position which atheists hold which theists cannot seem to understand.
God is utterly subjective to the theist, and as such no theist has the same impression of god. This alone sheds doubt on the nature of a 'one true and absolute' god.
I find it hard to believe that any atheist would seek god for any reason. If coming to believe in god is presupposed by an acceptance of his existence in order to seek him then that person is not an atheist.
Originally posted by knightmeister In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth. I always get the impression that Atheists ...[text shortened]... another life will never be the same again. God is not provable but he can be known.
If you had lived in a time before any "One God" religion, would you have found your "one God"? I think not. This proves that someone told you about god and you believed them, and then you went seeking this god. As the previous post points out, you could not possibly have found god without someone finding it for you, you believing in it, and then you thinking about it more.
Christians start off by believing in one God because someone told them about it, and then tranform it into a god that suits them. Therefore there are as many christian gods as there are Christians.
I have a christian god too, my christian god doesn't exist.
Originally posted by EcstremeVenom you cant go up to somebody and say "who is God?" something i have learned, is that when you want an answer to a question you will never get what you are looking for by asking it. you have to find the answer for yourself
"Seek and ye shall find". I've heard it before. But when I tell theist that I did that and found that there was no God, they just wont accept it.
Your post implies that you do not believe that you can learn anything from other people. So where do you learn stuff? Or is it possible that you don't?
Originally posted by twhitehead "Seek and ye shall find". I've heard it before. But when I tell theist that I did that and found that there was no God, they just wont accept it.
Your post implies that you do not believe that you can learn anything from other people. So where do you learn stuff? Or is it possible that you don't?
But when I tell theist that I did that and found that there was no God, they just wont accept it. WHITEY
I would , but I would be very interested to know what kind of seeking you did.
Originally posted by Starrman All that post suggests to me is that there is a logical position which atheists hold which theists cannot seem to understand.
God is utterly subjective to the theist, and as such no theist has the same impression of god. This alone sheds doubt on the nature of a 'one true and absolute' god.
I find it hard to believe that any atheist would seek god fo ...[text shortened]... sed by an acceptance of his existence in order to seek him then that person is not an atheist.
If coming to believe in god is presupposed by an acceptance of his existence in order to seek him then that person is not an atheist.STARRMAN
It's not as black and white as that and you must know this. In order to give God a chance to be found one must of course entertain the idea that he might be there , but this "entertaining" can be 1% , 10% 50% etc. The prayer often uttered by young christians is "if you are real God then...."
Originally posted by twiceaknight If you had lived in a time before any "One God" religion, would you have found your "one God"? I think not. This proves that someone told you about god and you believed them, and then you went seeking this god. As the previous post points out, you could not possibly have found god without someone finding it for you, you believing in it, and then you thi ...[text shortened]... ds as there are Christians.
I have a christian god too, my christian god doesn't exist.
Christians start off by believing in one God because someone told them about it, and then tranform it into a god that suits them. Therefore there are as many christian gods as there are Christians. TWICE
Nice to meet another knight , knight! I'm curious , how do you come to know so much about what goes on inside Christians heads?
Originally posted by twhitehead The fact that most Christians I have talked to don't seem to agree on what God is supposed to be like and their apparent inability to communicate very much about it to me doesn't help much.
Even you seem to be saying "I cant tell you what God is like I can only show you via a self brainwashing process".
Surely if any of the effects of God that you ref ...[text shortened]... erefore relative. I cannot possibly know what each and every individuals concept of God is.
Even you seem to be saying "I cant tell you what God is like I can only show you via a self brainwashing process".
Surely if any of the effects of God that you refer to are genuine then it would be possible for you to partially communicate to others what those effects are without them also directly experiencing them? WHITEY
On the contrary , it's perfectly possible to tell you what God is like but you may or may not accept it. I could tell you he is not this preposterous , wrathful god who delights in sending people to hell and doesn't want us to think for ourselves for example , but you would probably prefer your strawman god because he's easier to disbelieve. As for "self brainwashing" idea , that's part of the strawman model you have created for yourself. Have you ever wondered whether you might be doing the self brainwashing?
Originally posted by Starrman All that post suggests to me is that there is a logical position which atheists hold which theists cannot seem to understand.
God is utterly subjective to the theist, and as such no theist has the same impression of god. This alone sheds doubt on the nature of a 'one true and absolute' god.
I find it hard to believe that any atheist would seek god fo ...[text shortened]... sed by an acceptance of his existence in order to seek him then that person is not an atheist.
God is utterly subjective to the theist, and as such no theist has the same impression of god. This alone sheds doubt on the nature of a 'one true and absolute' god.STARRMAN
I'm curious as to how you might be so privy to the subjective experience of theists first of all. Secondly what you are saying is not true . Many Christians share very similar experiences of the intimacy and faithfulness of God's love for example.
What you are saying is just a truism. Our experiences of nature are very sublime and individual and we all find different aspects of nature appealing but one would not say that nature is not a unified whole or that nature does not exist because of this. Individual perspectives and experiences do not prove a fragmented reality , it just shows we can all experience things in different ways uniquely.
Originally posted by knightmeister In my opinion , Christianity draws as much of a distinction between those who "know" God and those who don't as it does between those who believe and disbelieve. I say this because I hear so much utter , utter rubbish spouted about what God is supposed to be like that is nothing but a distortion of the truth. I always get the impression that Atheists ...[text shortened]... another life will never be the same again. God is not provable but he can be known.
May I ask you a question? In all sincerity, how do you know what God is like?
Is it safe for me to assume that the rubbish you refer to is what the atheist are saying about God? And could you include what some believers are saying as well?
Originally posted by josephw May I ask you a question? In all sincerity, how do you know what God is like?
Is it safe for me to assume that the rubbish you refer to is what the atheist are saying about God? And could you include what some believers are saying as well?
Is it safe for me to assume that the rubbish you refer to is what the atheist are saying about God? JOSEPHW
Fairly safe to assume yes , although I have heard some misrepresentations in churches too.
Originally posted by knightmeister If coming to believe in god is presupposed by an acceptance of his existence in order to seek him then that person is not an atheist.STARRMAN
It's not as black and white as that and you must know this. In order to give God a chance to be found one must of course entertain the idea that he might be there , but this "entertaining" can be 1% , 10% 50% etc. The prayer often uttered by young christians is "if you are real God then...."
Do you have any idea what an atheist is? Someone who denies the existence of god. This isn't a 1% 10% or any % belief in the existence of od, it's a big fat 0%, how is it you can't see this?
who knows?
13 Mar '07 10:30
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