Originally posted by Starrman Do you have any idea what an atheist is? Someone who denies the existence of god. This isn't a 1% 10% or any % belief in the existence of od, it's a big fat 0%, how is it you can't see this?
This postion would be highly presumptuous though since the only way we can assess reality is through probability. One cannot prove that the sun will come up tomorrow , only that it is highly likely. I know a few Atheists who would not eliminate the possibility of God the way you would but they are still very firm Atheists . They realise that it would be irrational to rule anything out because there is so much we don't know. You seem to prefer certainties and absolutes which to me is suspicious. I imagine in a parallel universe there is a starman fundie preacher who would 100% rule out Atheism with the same fervour and dogma with which you rule out theism.
The reality is that for theists and atheists a like some healthy self questioning skepticism is useful and neccessary. Belief or disbelief , it's all the same , they both need doubt to keep them dynamic. I know it's uncomfortable and anxiety provoking but doubt can invigorate you atheism if you let it. Personally , I can't be around theists who never question their faith.
Originally posted by knightmeister This postion would be highly presumptuous though since the only way we can assess reality is through probability. One cannot prove that the sun will come up tomorrow , only that it is highly likely. I know a few Atheists who would not eliminate the possibility of God the way you would but they are still very firm Atheists . They realise that it would b heism if you let it. Personally , I can't be around theists who never question their faith.
This postion would be highly presumptuous though No it isn't!
Would it be presumptuous of me to say I'm 100% certain I don't have an eye in the back of my head?...I can only see the back of my head indirectly through photo's, mirrors etc, what if my ability to process visual information was impaired to such extent that I cannot make out this 3rd eye? Though I've never felt it that might perhaps just mean I keep looking in the wrong place! That I can't recall using it may be because I don't know how to, or that I keep forgetting that I have used it. Also, perhaps the whole world is some big conspiracy, the members of which exist only to trick me into thinking I only have 2 eyes.
Originally posted by knightmeister This postion would be highly presumptuous though since the only way we can assess reality is through probability. One cannot prove that the sun will come up tomorrow , only that it is highly likely. I know a few Atheists who would not eliminate the possibility of God the way you would but they are still very firm Atheists . They realise that it would b ...[text shortened]... heism if you let it. Personally , I can't be around theists who never question their faith.
You clearly know nothing about my position, nor have you yet grasped the obvious ramifications of atheism. I'm a weak atheist, I deny the existence of god in the face of a lack of evidence to support such a belief, I also happen to be a materialist and a relativist. I do not believe in absolutes, it's just that you don't seem to really understand the implications of the view I have been putting to you.
Your second paragraph is sloppy thinking and not only am I far more self-questioning than 90% of the theists I have met here, but I have seen very little evidence that theists really do question their faith, even when they claim to do so.
Originally posted by knightmeister Thanks Scotty ! I thought for a moment I had missed the bullseye but now I know I am on to something. If you didn't feel at all threatened by what I was saying you would not have felt the need to squash it and ridicule it.
I don't feel threatened by it at all. When something is rubbish though, it's best just to say so.
Originally posted by Starrman You clearly know nothing about my position, nor have you yet grasped the obvious ramifications of atheism. I'm a weak atheist, I deny the existence of god in the face of a lack of evidence to support such a belief, I also happen to be a materialist and a relativist. I do not believe in absolutes, it's just that you don't seem to really understand the impli ...[text shortened]... y little evidence that theists really do question their faith, even when they claim to do so.
I do not believe in absolutes, it's just that you don't seem to really understand the implications of the view I have been putting to you.STARMAN
...but you imply that there is a 0% chance of God existing and and 0% chance that you may yet find out something that would change the way you perceive God and a 100% chance you are right about this. You know all there is to know on this subject and that's all there is to it. I wish I could be so certain , life would be much easier!
Originally posted by scottishinnz I don't feel threatened by it at all. When something is rubbish though, it's best just to say so.
However , you have not said why it is rubbish or provided an argument to support this. The problem is this is your approach to all theist arguments it seems (rubbish!) and thus it loses it's effect in the same way as swearing all the time does.
But then if all one is concerned with is ridicule and "stopping" people trying to make coherent arguments about theism then short sound bites are much more satisfying than an actual argument.
Originally posted by Starrman Yeah, of course, that's it! It couldn't possibly be that he's telling it like it is, that would be just crazy!
I would be happy for him to "tell it like it is" but he doesn't ! He offers next to nothing in the way of supporting argument (unlike yourself) and so it's quite difficult for anyone, including you, to know what point he is making really. You only rally to his side because he's an atheist whose sole interest is to maintain at all costs the "theism is total nonsense" position.
I think neither him or you are crazy at all. I perceive you both as coming to the table with a preconceived , unquestioned position , primed to ridicule which if a theist were to display you would immediately criticize. In one sense scotty is entirely predictable.
Originally posted by scottishinnz I don't feel threatened by it at all. When something is rubbish though, it's best just to say so.
I don't feel threatened by it at all. SCOTTY
Of course not. However , I do find your position a challenge and a threat sometimes and I am not afraid to admit it.
Notice how you said "at all". It reminds me of when people say "I'm not AT ALL bothered by that" ...or "No not at all , I would NEVER dream of such a thing" . It 's a classic denial defence . The feared thing cannot be allowed one inch of room because the thought is far too anxiety provoking to be even be partially acknowledged (even to oneself)
Originally posted by knightmeister ...but you imply that there is a 0% chance of God existing and and 0% chance that you may yet find out something that would change the way you perceive God and a 100% chance you are right about this.
No I don't, once again you fail to correctly interpret my clearly set out post. I invest no belief in god's existence, but I have said absolutely nothing about the 'chance' of his existing, nor about the chance of being correct.. My position is based solely on the lack of evidence available. The only way I could come to believe in god would be by purely blind faith.
You know all there is to know on this subject and that's all there is to it. I wish I could be so certain , life would be much easier!
I have never claimed that, once again you display a complete failure to grasp my point or position.
Originally posted by knightmeister You only rally to his side because he's an atheist whose sole interest is to maintain at all costs the "theism is total nonsense" position.
The only reason I would 'rally to his side' in these debates, despite my like of him as a person, is if we share a common view of the topic at hand and to combat misinterpretation or disagreement with that view, not because he is an atheist at all.
I think neither him or you are crazy at all. I perceive you both as coming to the table with a preconceived , unquestioned position , primed to ridicule which if a theist were to display you would immediately criticize. In one sense scotty is entirely predictable.
Originally posted by Starrman Do you have any idea what an atheist is? Someone who denies the existence of god. This isn't a 1% 10% or any % belief in the existence of od, it's a big fat 0%, how is it you can't see this?
I think of atheism more as "I reject the hypothesis 'God exists' because the weight of evidence against it is above some threshold, my standard of belief, which depends on how observant and careful in my reasoning I am". Like our belief in any other claim outside of pure deduction, our belief in god should be basically probabilistic.
Originally posted by Starrman Originally posted by knightmeister [b]...but you imply that there is a 0% chance of God existing and and 0% chance that you may yet find out something that would change the way you perceive God and a 100% chance you are right about this.
No I don't, once again you fail to correctly interpret my clearly set out post. I invest no belief in go ...[text shortened]... ever claimed that, once again you display a complete failure to grasp my point or position.[/b]
The only way I could come to believe in god would be by purely blind faith. STARMAN
And I accept this is how you feel at the moment . This is probably what leads you to conclude that if this is true for you then it must be true for theists as well , therefore it's logical for you to assume that all theists are merely indulging in blind faith. However , you seem to exclude the possibility that a theist may have an extra part or two of the jigsaw puzzle. This must be the case because you used the word "only" in your sentence. You do not allow for the possibility that a theist might actually hold the position they do because God actually seems pretty damn likely to them.
Is it not possible that both Atheist and Theist are sometimes being true to themselves in their beliefs , at the same time?
Originally posted by ChronicLeaky I think of atheism more as "I reject the hypothesis 'God exists' because the weight of evidence against it is above some threshold, my standard of belief, which depends on how observant and careful in my reasoning I am". Like our belief in any other claim outside of pure deduction, our belief in god should be basically probabilistic.
Like our belief in any other claim outside of pure deduction, our belief in god should be basically probabilistic.
It should be logical, coherrant, empirically justified, and testable...Magic friends do not have these properties (unless you limit yourself to the *subjective* viewpoints of theists.)
Originally posted by Starrman Originally posted by knightmeister [b]You only rally to his side because he's an atheist whose sole interest is to maintain at all costs the "theism is total nonsense" position.
The only reason I would 'rally to his side' in these debates, despite my like of him as a person, is if we share a common view of the topic at hand and to combat mis ...[text shortened]... . In one sense scotty is entirely predictable.[/b]
Funny, that's exactly how I see you.[/b]
Funny, that's exactly how I see you.
I'm not ridiculing you am I? I'm simply presenting the idea that there maybe something that you have yet to know or understand that could shed new light on your beliefs. It would be foolish of any Theist to think that they could never genuinly lose their faith , but it also works the other way.......
Originally posted by knightmeister Funny, that's exactly how I see you.
I'm not ridiculing you am I? I'm simply presenting the idea that there maybe something that you have yet to know or understand that could shed new light on your beliefs. It would be foolish of any Theist to think that they could never genuinly lose their faith , but it also works the other way.......
It would be just as foolish for atheists to think that they could never lose their faith that they don't have a million arms also then!!!
You don't seem to appreciate how ridiculous the concept of a magic friend actually is to atheists
who knows?
15 Mar '07 00:24
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